So, you're looking for a meta-metaphysics Steve ? Ian
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Steve Peterson<[email protected]> wrote: > Hi DMB, > > I feel like I've done a disservice to Rorty for not explaining more about > what I'm getting at with these questions, but I was hoping that others could > upack Rorty's ironism better than I could. > > The issue I wanted to get to is this: If you talk to a materialist, she can > give you a good account of reality based on her materialist assumptions of a > reality based on substance. Same thing if you talk to an idealist who bases > reality on the subjective self, or if you talk to Pirsig who bases his > metaphysics on Quality, or Heidegger on Being, or Ham on Essence etc. You > could have the same sorts of conversations with Taoists or Buddhists or > Christians and others who all have very different fundamental assumptions > about the nature of reality. You will find that all these systems > demonstrate valid chains of reasoning within the frameworks that they have > set up. The truth is that self-consistent rationally sound metaphysical > systems are a dime a dozen, so we shouldn't be too impressed that the fact > that they are self-consistent and rationally sound. Aquinas's dictum "when > you reach a contradiction, make a distinction" tells us exactly how easy it > is to ensure that your system is self-consistent. > > What we would need to adopt any of these systems and what no one has ever > invented is a method that stands outside of metaphysics that tells us how to > choose between such systems. I think the recognition of the shortcomings of > the project of creating a metaphysical system is what Rorty means by > ironism. To be ironist about a metaphysical system is to use it for whatever > purposes it is useful for without thinking of it as closer to the one true > account of the way things really are than any other since the ironist when > it comes to metaphysics doesn't think of metaphysics as the project of > getting past some Kantian barrier between language and reality as it really > is--that we can get more or less in touch with reality by coming up with the > right sentences to describe reality and holding them to be true. > > So my question about whether Pirsig is an ironist is concerned with whether > Pirsig sees the MOQ getting us in touch with reality as it really is...Or > something like that. I'm still hoping that Matt or someone will jump in and > tell me what it is I want to ask. > > Best, > Steve > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2009, at 11:09 PM, david buchanan wrote: > >> >> Hey Steve and y'all: >> I remember being perplexed by this sort of talk when Matt used to talk >> like that. What I still don't quite understand is what Rorty means by "final >> vocabulary" or "choice between vocabularies". What is a metavocabulary and >> how can one be neutral or universal? I mean, this definition of an "ironist" >> depends entirely on the meaning of such terms but no explanations or >> definitions of them are supplied. >> >> Matt? Steve? Can you tell me what this talk about "vocabulary" means? >> >> Without that, he just seems to be saying that an "ironist" is a person who >> is uncertain of her own beliefs and that this uncertainty is a very >> sophisticated sort of doubt. It's like he's trying to make it sound cool. >> When such irony is compared to the certainty of fanatics and ideologues, I >> suppose it is pretty cool. Is he just saying that an ironist is like >> Socrates; she's the wisest of them all because she knows that she doesn't >> know anything? >> >> >> But I also suppose (and hope) Rorty is saying something more interesting >> than that. Otherwise, why use the fancy jargon? Otherwise, why provide a >> definition that needs a whole series of other definitions? I would hope his >> point his worth the work it takes to get that point. I hope he's not just >> repeated that Socratic idea of wisdom, cause there sure are easier and more >> elegant ways to say that. >> >> >> >> >>> From: [email protected] >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 18:11:58 -0400 >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [MD] Ironistic Metaphysics >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> What is metaphysics? Does everyone have a metaphysics? Or can people >>> get by without being metaphysicians? >>> >>> Rorty: >>> "I shall define an "ironist" as someone who fulfills three >>> conditions: (1) She has radical and continuing doubts about the final >>> vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by >>> other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books >>> she has encountered; (2) she realizes that argument phrased in her >>> present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts; >>> (3) insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not >>> think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it >>> is in touch with a power not herself. Ironists who are inclined to >>> philosophize see the choice between vocabularies as made neither >>> within a neutral and universal metavocabulary nor by an attempt to >>> fight one's way past appearances to the real, but simply by playing >>> the new off against the old." >>> >>> Is Pirsig an ironist? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Steve >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Get free photo software from Windows Live >> >> http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009 >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
