Hi Bo 18 Aug. you wrote:
Ron prev. > Bo, have YOU read Kant? Immanuel Kant, the 18th century philosopher. > Have you heard of "the critique of pure reason"? Pirsig mentions his > apriori concept in reference to his motorcycle in ZAMM? Bo: No one since ?? has "read" Kant, we trust interpreters. You seem to trust Wikipeda and it says just what I said. The empiricists had found that there was nothing "out there". Remove the "knowledge" or the qualities provided by the subject leaves a complete void. THIS was the "pure reason" Kant found frightening and what he criticized. I can't start analyzing all this "every schoolboy knows" stuff just because Ron launches his endless Wikipeda quotes (like the one about Lorentz Transformation that confirms what I say) hoping that it sounds like debunking Bo. Ron: If you would have READ (a translation) of Kants work you would realize that Kant "debunks" empiricism, in other words to understand Kants critique one should READ David Hume and his reasoning on how sense data comes from an objective outside world. Which is what your quote from ZMM states if you were astute enough to realize it. The Lorentz transformation relates specifically to special relativity. Google it. Kant was one of the first of the enlightenment philosophers to challenge the notion of an objective empirical "out there" to be known. He challenged the notion of what he called a "thing in itself". In your own terms, he was not a contributor to the creation of SOM, quite the opposite, he was one of the first to challenge it. HUME is who helped perpetuate SOM. Why not read ZAMM for a change: Strart here (page 130 in your copy) To follow Kant one must also understand something about the Scottish philosopher David Hume. Hume had previously submitted that if one follows the strictest rules of logical induction and deduction from experience to determine the true nature of the world, one must arrive at certain conclusions. His reasoning followed lines that would result from answers to this question: Suppose a child is born devoid of all senses; he has no sight, no hearing, no touch, no smell, no taste...nothing. There's no way whatsoever for him to receive any sensations from the outside world. And suppose this child is fed intravenously and otherwise attended to and kept alive for eighteen years in this state of existence. The question is then asked: Does this eighteen-year-old person have a thought in his head? If so, where does it come from? How does he get it? Hume would have answered that the eighteen-year-old had no thoughts whatsoever, and in giving this answer would have defined himself as an empiricist, one who believes all knowledge is derived exclusively from the senses. The scientific method of experimentation is carefully controlled empiricism. Common sense today is empiricism, since an overwhelming majority would agree with Hume, even though in other cultures and other times a majority might have differed." Ron: Bodvar, do you understand now that the above notion of empiricism is HUME not KANT, Pirsig goes on to state Kants position: "The first problem of empiricism, if empiricism is believed, concerns the nature of ``substance.'' If all our knowledge comes from sensory data, what exactly is this substance which is supposed to give off the sensory data itself? If you try to imagine what this substance is, apart from what is sensed, you'll find yourself thinking about nothing whatsoever. Since all knowledge comes from sensory impressions and since there's no sensory impression of substance itself, it follows logically that there is no knowledge of substance. It's just something we imagine. It's entirely within our own minds. The idea that there's something out there giving off the properties we perceive is just another of those common-sense notions similar to the common-sense notion children have that the earth is flat and parallel lines never meet." READ Bodvar READ carefully Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
