Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] {Spam?} Re: [MD} The relativity of the MoQ
I agree. ----- Mensagem de [email protected] --------- Data: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:51:09 -0400 De: MarshaV <[email protected]> Endereço para Resposta (Reply-To): [email protected] Assunto: {Spam?} Re: [MD] [MD} The relativity of the MoQ Para: [email protected] > > Bo, > > I'm still with you. The Intellectual Level is about objectifying abstract > symbols: > > "Objectification is the process by which abstract concepts are treated as if > they were concrete things or physical objects. In this sense the term is > synonym to reification." > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:35 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] [MD} The relativity of the MoQ > > Hi Ron > > 30 Aug. > > I had said: > >> > DMB entered back in the mid nineties shortly after the forming of the >> > Lila Squad with an intense interest in Mythology as conveyed by Campbell >> > and a conviction of this fitting with MOQ's social level (which it does) >> > but he was "seduced" by Paul Turner whose mission was to debunk the SOL >> > interpretation and after that ..... well without the right >> > interpretation the MOQ becomes a drag, nothing fits and it can't explain >> > or predict anything. > > Ron: > >> Many times, by many examples do we use to explain the benifits and the >> explanitory power of the Moq as we understand it per Pirsig, which you >> do not agree with even Pirsig himself. You however have yet to give >> ONE example of the explanitory power your SOL provides other than your >> say-so. > > First "the way you understand it" is that SOM is one among many > intellectual patterns, and the definition of the 4th. level is "the > manipulation of symbols ...etc." Is that correct > > The MOQ postulates an principal struggle between the lower and > upper levels, that they mutually regard each other as "evil", biological > life struggles to avoid death and "inorgany" does its best to prevent > life. OK, why would manipulation of symbol be offensive to "society" > and vice versa. This is completely illogical, while SOM (objectivity- > over-subjectivity) and social values are completely incompatible. > > Then very generally (because I don't have LILA with me here, but I > will provide quotes if needed) Pirsig says that every major conflict up > through the (later) age have been varieties of the social- intellectual > struggle and if so intellect must be the value of the S/O distinction > (with emphasis on the "objective over subjective" part) there can't be > other intellectual patterns or this would be invalid, then everything > must have been a "civil war" within intellect. > > All intellectual pattern that Pirsig lists in LILA are based on the S/O > (again the "objective over subjective" part). Free this and free that, > independent this and independent that, all is about freeing everything > from the social bonds by showing that these are subjective. It's more > than plain that intellect must be the objective as different from > subjective (the latter the pejorative term that intellect applies to > everything social) > > The Nazi vs Democracy conflict Pirsig sees as Social values' last > stand against intellect and if so Intellect must be the value of the > objective freedoms and independency over what it saw as evil itself, > namely the individual submission under society's demands for giving > everything for the "cause". If not this would be a struggle between > nazi "ideas" and democratic ditto ... which is good SOM, but not > MOQ. > > The present "Western Values" that the Muslims hate so much (but > want the economical benefits of) is clearly Intellect in the shape of > democracy - not merely elections but all its shores against despotism > which is the curse of the Islamic culture. Any dictator are welcomed if > only dedicated to islam, no "Christian" (intellectual) distinction > between religion and state. THAT in fact is the very "evil" they fight > against with such ferocity ... and disregard of life, which is society's > force, the individual is supposed to give its life freely to defend the > "cause". > >> you can't even mount a convincing argue to Ham, the perfect subject >> for your aims. > > I must first "smoke him out" and that is impossible. > >> one example > >> except, a sesame street explaination of moving the "M" from SOM >> to the "M" of the MOQ. > >> Big Bird would be proud > > I don't understand your colloquialism, but now it's your turn to tell how > your interpretation of the intellectual level explains things. > > Bodvar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > ----- Final da mensagem de [email protected] ----- Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
