I agree.
----- Mensagem de [email protected] ---------
Data: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:51:09 -0400
De: MarshaV <[email protected]>
Endereço para Resposta (Reply-To): [email protected]
Assunto: {Spam?} Re: [MD] [MD} The relativity of the MoQ
Para: [email protected]
Bo,
I'm still with you. The Intellectual Level is about objectifying
abstract
symbols:
"Objectification is the process by which abstract concepts are
treated as if
they were concrete things or physical objects. In this sense the
term is
synonym to reification."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification
Marsha
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [MD] [MD} The relativity of the MoQ
Hi Ron
30 Aug.
I had said:
> DMB entered back in the mid nineties shortly after the forming
of the
> Lila Squad with an intense interest in Mythology as conveyed by
Campbell
> and a conviction of this fitting with MOQ's social level (which
it does)
> but he was "seduced" by Paul Turner whose mission was to debunk
the SOL
> interpretation and after that ..... well without the right
> interpretation the MOQ becomes a drag, nothing fits and it can't
explain
> or predict anything.
Ron:
Many times, by many examples do we use to explain the benifits and
the
explanitory power of the Moq as we understand it per Pirsig, which
you
do not agree with even Pirsig himself. You however have yet to
give
ONE example of the explanitory power your SOL provides other than
your
say-so.
First "the way you understand it" is that SOM is one among many
intellectual patterns, and the definition of the 4th. level is "the
manipulation of symbols ...etc." Is that correct
The MOQ postulates an principal struggle between the lower and
upper levels, that they mutually regard each other as "evil",
biological
life struggles to avoid death and "inorgany" does its best to
prevent
life. OK, why would manipulation of symbol be offensive to
"society"
and vice versa. This is completely illogical, while SOM
(objectivity-
over-subjectivity) and social values are completely incompatible.
Then very generally (because I don't have LILA with me here, but I
will provide quotes if needed) Pirsig says that every major
conflict up
through the (later) age have been varieties of the social-
intellectual
struggle and if so intellect must be the value of the S/O
distinction
(with emphasis on the "objective over subjective" part) there can't
be
other intellectual patterns or this would be invalid, then
everything
must have been a "civil war" within intellect.
All intellectual pattern that Pirsig lists in LILA are based on the
S/O
(again the "objective over subjective" part). Free this and free
that,
independent this and independent that, all is about freeing
everything
from the social bonds by showing that these are subjective. It's
more
than plain that intellect must be the objective as different from
subjective (the latter the pejorative term that intellect applies
to
everything social)
The Nazi vs Democracy conflict Pirsig sees as Social values' last
stand against intellect and if so Intellect must be the value of
the
objective freedoms and independency over what it saw as evil
itself,
namely the individual submission under society's demands for giving
everything for the "cause". If not this would be a struggle between
nazi "ideas" and democratic ditto ... which is good SOM, but not
MOQ.
The present "Western Values" that the Muslims hate so much (but
want the economical benefits of) is clearly Intellect in the shape
of
democracy - not merely elections but all its shores against
despotism
which is the curse of the Islamic culture. Any dictator are
welcomed if
only dedicated to islam, no "Christian" (intellectual) distinction
between religion and state. THAT in fact is the very "evil" they
fight
against with such ferocity ... and disregard of life, which is
society's
force, the individual is supposed to give its life freely to defend
the
"cause".
you can't even mount a convincing argue to Ham, the perfect
subject
for your aims.
I must first "smoke him out" and that is impossible.
one example
except, a sesame street explaination of moving the "M" from SOM
to the "M" of the MOQ.
Big Bird would be proud
I don't understand your colloquialism, but now it's your turn to
tell how
your interpretation of the intellectual level explains things.
Bodvar
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