Ron, You didn't offer the post as an explanation of the Zen tradition, and I didn't ask for such an explanation. If you read your post, Zen wasn't mentioned at all. It read like your opinion without a mention of Zen.
Marsha Marsha, Read the entire thread (attached to this post below) no mention of Zen? -Ron From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:09:04 PM Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ Greetings, I do not buy the 180-wrong-way/360-right-way. I don't think you try to do it _for_ yourself, but for some _by_ yourself. There are many paths. Chop wood, carry water suits my way of thinking, because it doesn't take more than one person to chop the wood or carry the water. While I appreciate helping each other, I'm totally against line-dancing. in reply to: Greetings Arlo, Sure sounds like you're on the right track. I figure you're about the age of my kids, and what you've written makes good sense. I'm grateful that you've taken the time to write. I'm from such a different perspective than you, both from circumstances and choice, that I don't know how to comment. I can see you are much more balanced than me. That seems appropriate to your responsibility. - I still have no idea where Andre's "slightly worried" is directed, especially as it was in response to a post I sent. Do you have any idea? 180-degree Zen and 360-degree Zen seems to be some kind of abstract, symbolic Zen language. Do you think one needs to join a Zen community, to 'get it'? I might have thought so at one time, but I do not anymore. ----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:54:05 PM Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of X Acto Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ I do'nt disagree with anything you asked what 180 degree and 360 degree Zen meant. I related what I was taught thats all but if you want to disagree, disagree, it seems to make you happy ----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:36:52 PM Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ Ron, My point-of-view is different than yours. And that you disagree with me matters little. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of X Acto Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ not wrong or right half and full circle incomplete and complete it's what those words meant dance around them any way you like ----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:09:04 PM Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ Greetings, I do not buy the 180-wrong-way/360-right-way. I don't think you try to do it _for_ yourself, but for some _by_ yourself. There are many paths. Chop wood, carry water suits my way of thinking, because it doesn't take more than one person to chop the wood or carry the water. While I appreciate helping each other, I'm totally against line-dancing. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of X Acto Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ John, Marsha, When Arlo stated: "I would say the message is "you can't have one without the other". Pirsig has described his books as "the path to enlightenment" (ZMM) and "the path back" (LILA), and I think that any attempt to isolate or even dismiss one as being "unnecessary" or "unimportant" is very problematic. Trying to apply LILA without the understanding (or "enlightenment", as Pirsig calls it) of ZMM is like trying to heal a gunshot wound by covering it with a band-aid; it does not address the root problem." Which means that the path to enlightenment is the path back. The Chinease venerate the circle. One practices Zen, then one forgets it. I think Pirsig quoted a Zen master as saying this "Zen is like soap, first you wash with it, then you wash it off" before enlightenment chop wood, carry water after enlightenment chop wood, carry water that being said, that by only concerning ourselves with the path to enlightenment, we only realize half the journey. ----- Original Message ---- From: John Carl <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 1:21:05 PM Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:55 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Greetings Arlo, > . - I still have no idea where Andre's "slightly worried" is > directed, especially as it was in response to a post I sent. Well I think I know. I was just reading a book<http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=6735>about Zen and I don't have it with me or I'd quote you the passage, but basically, after all this discipline, effort, training and work, the Enlightened One finds he has gotten absolutely nowhere! Andre, probably, if he's at all like me, looks at this equation and thinks, "can I just take a short-cut or something?" And I say, YES! Go ahead Andre It's your path, you do what you want. > Do you have > any idea? 180-degree Zen and 360-degree Zen seems to be some kind of > abstract, symbolic Zen language. I'd say 180 zen is for those going in the wrong direction and 360 is for those who are basically headed in the right direction, but want smoother circles in their life. But I'm more of an up-and-down kinda guy myself. The spinning circles aren't as much fun as roller coasters, but they all go in a circle of some kind so... its pretty inescapable eh? Do you think one needs to join a Zen > community, to 'get it'? I might have thought so at one time, but I do not > anymore. > > Well traditionally speaking, Zen has always passed through a community, a school. All of its classic literature is compiled and passed along as a communal effort, even though the effort of writing is always a solitary activity, the writer is composing for a reader in his imagination or why even bother? John the butter-inner Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk..org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
