Andre, I think you are drifting in a "good" direction. It's alot to think about.
Sunday, October 4, 2009 4:13:28 PM Subject: Re: [MD] Quality is Appreciation in Value Ron to Andre: An example of what I'm trying to get accross is that SOM's idea of "subjective" only operates when one takes objective reality as FACT. MoQ does not take objective reality as FACT but an idea about experience. Andre: Here is one of my objections Ron: when you say:'...idea about experience'. You talk about an idea about the quality experience. When we start to do this all is subjective. But there is nothing subjective (or objective ) about experience. Note that I am not talking about the learnings we take from this. No. If the experience itself is considered subjective (an idea) then the MoQ is done for. As Pirsig has argued; the closer we get to the experience the closer the subjective (and objective) dissolves, or , for this matter the subject and object isn't) within the experience there are no subjects or objects. Ron: Thats what I'm getting at Andre, all thats left is value. So how can humans say with any absolute certainty what IS? we can't, its dynamic and so is our experience. Andre: There is no objective reality, and because there is no objective reality there is no subjective reality, there cannot be. There can only be Quality ...and the more I feel it and see it around me, the more I am convinced of its "presence" ...and sometimes I wonder if I am not its slave, as if I am in its grip out of which I cannot escape. I do not find this pleasant. It is scary stuff. I experience it almost as a surrendering to something I do not quite understand, but it is very powerful. Ron: surrendering is the first step of achieving a mastery of any "art" Andre: My "intellect" has something to say about this but gets defied everytime. Intellectually, I try to reason but gets overwhelmed with input from all levels of PoV's. Intellect is not at the top of the hierarchy...only in an evolutionary sense and a metaphysical sense. Ron: Don't try to reason, focus on what you value and why. Andre: Intellect is what Pirsig has described it as being, but not at the top of the heap of the four levels. Intellect has, from an evolutionary point of view, many forms, and has expressed its function as well as its freedom as it has been allowed to express itself according to each level's quality experience i.e within each levels' 'code', or system of morality (of which there are five, according to the MoQ). These are the 'battlegrounds', the plaything of the judges, just as Lila was a judge... . These codes are the centrepiece of the levels. These levels' existence depend upon the outcome of the battle played within this code. Ron: You are the judge, and the battlegoundd is your own experience. Thats why I think the importance lies in knowing what our values are and why we have them, then one may filter the more imporant patterns from the less important ones. Then larger patterns of value may emerge. The more one developes an understanding of ones own values and prejudices the more one understands their "world" and thus has more control. y to reason but gets overwhelmed with input from all levels of PoV's. Intellect is not at the top of the hierarchy...only in an evolutionary sense and a metaphysical sense. Intellect is what Pirsig has described it as being, but not at the top of the heap of the four levels. Intellect has, from an evolutionary point of view, many forms, and has expressed its function as well as its freedom as it has been allowed to express itself according to each level's quality experience i.e within each levels' 'code', or system of morality (of which there are five, according to the MoQ). These are the 'battlegrounds', the plaything of the judges, just as Lila was a judge... . These codes are the centrepiece of the levels. These levels' existence depend upon the outcome of the battle played within this code. Anyway. I have strayed a bit too far Ron. Am still laterally drifting. Kind regards Andre Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
