Andre, Ron, Everyone
26 Nov.:
I had said to Ron
> Can't see the flaw. SOM - the subject/object premises - employed
> logic successfully for nearly two millenniums, but of late (the
> empiricists of the seventeenth century is "recent" in this context)
> it began to spawn paradoxes and as a result Pirsig worked out new
> premises and logic will follow suit. (in the grand time scale)
Andre:
> Enter Annotation 132 (LC):
[The MoQ] ...employs SOM reasoning the way SOM
reasoning employs social structures such as courts and
journals and learned societies to make itself known. SOM
reasoning is not subordinate to these social structures, and
the MOQ is not subordinate to the SOM structures it employs.
Remember that the central reality of the MOQ is not an object
or a subject or anything else. It is understood by direct
experience only and not by reasoning of any kind. Therefore
to say that the MOQ is based on SOM reasoning is as useful
as saying that the Ten Commandments are based on SOM
reasoning. It doesn't tell us anything about the essence of the
Ten Commandmants and it doesn't tell us anything about the
essence of the MOQ'.
> If I understand this correctly there are two things here:
Thanks Andre for digging up this quote, I know that some will twist
even this out of shape, but look. Pirsig says that the MOQ employs
S/O reasoning, the way SOM employs social ... etc. I.e. he treats
the MOQ in a level- like relationship with SOM and places SOM in
intellect's role versus the social level. Can the SOL be expressed
more unequivocally?.The intellectual level is SOM and the MOQ
something that uses intellect, but is not subordinate to it.
> 1) logic/reasoning is not necessarily 'objective' (or subjective)
Right, from underlying premises thinking (intelligence) draws any
conclusions except those that violate the logical rules. "Reasoning" on
the other hand is the 4th. level's objective-over-subjective approach
and Pirsig also says "SOM reasoning", thus when it comes to the 3rd.
level he says "employs social structures". That this includes
intelligence is obvious, but not the focus.
> 2) by applying SOM reasoning to the MOQ, as Pirsig says somewhere in
> LILA, the data do not change but (within the MoQ premises) it
> completely up-ends the interpretation that can be given.
Hmm, I would say "by re-programming" INTELLIGENCE with the
MOQ the (dynamic) data are rearranged..
> Have I understood this correctly?
Yes, with a little nudge ;-)
Bodvar
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