dmb said to David T:
Even as you deny it, there is still the implication that designating a culture
as social is an insult to their intelligence.
David T. replied:
I said nothing about their intelligence. But to claim that people of social
cultures do not have intellects, is yes an insult to the intelligence of people
everywhere.
dmb says:
That's twice now that you've denied saying it even while saying it again. C'mon
David, intellectual values are the kind of thing that depends on widespread
literacy and highly developed educational training. The fact that some cultures
don't have that stuff in place doesn't mean the people are stupid. Those people
have exactly the same equipment any other human has but they're just not going
to run Harvard medical school if all they ever know is a nomadic lifestyle.
Similarly, if you or I was dropped into that world, we'd look pretty stupid to
them and we'd probably not survive without a lot of help.
David T. said:
Intelligence and intellect are two different words with two distinct and
different meanings. I just finished CBC Episode 22 where anthropologist Allan
Young referring to a study of a tribe in the upper Nile in the 1930's quotes
the study as saying, "..they were empirical people, with intellects that
appreciated progress, they wanted the best for their families. They just
believed in witches." This scientist claims they had "intellects". Bo would
claim not, I agree with the scientist. I also believe this not so subtle
distinction is necessary to figure out the relationships between
social/intellectual levels.
dmb says:
Well, obviously he was just saying they were smart in their own context. I
seriously doubt if he was thinking of Pirsig's social-intellectual distinction.
I mean, you can agree with the scientist and Pirsig at the same time without
contradiction.
David T said:
But RMP gives examples and is unclear enough in many ways that he can be
easily misinterpreted. (ie the moral superiority of socialism)
dmb says:
Yea, I'm glad you mentioned that. Pirsig's diagnosis makes much more sense if
you understand what socialism actually is. The tyrannical and genocidal actions
of dictators hardly counts as socialism. I realize this is a very common
misconception but I think it's pretty clear that Pol Pot, for example, who sent
depopulated the cities sending everyone into the jungle and back to the stone
age, was not guided by intellect. I mean if political leaders and systems
really were what they called themselves, then we could claim that the Union of
Soviet Socialist Republics was a republican form of government and use their
crimes to damn the other forms of republican government, including our own.
Same thing goes for the People's Republic of China and we could same logic to
claim that the UK is a monarchy. This is true technically but it would be very
misleading to leave it at that. Plus the Parliament would feel insulted.
Anyway, if you don't conflate socialism with the monsters of the twentieth
century, I think Pirsig's diagnosis makes perfect sense.
David T said:
This is the crux isn't it. Taken to the extreme if the intellectual level
(science) has the moral right to dominate every thing then society has no moral
right to say anything to or about science except, Yes sir. How stupid and
seriously dangerous is that? The interpretation that the MoQ claims reality is
exclusively a top down moral order is just as dangerous as the reductionist
claim it is determined from bottom up. Neither is true or good.
dmb says:
I think your complaint is pretty goofy. Society has no moral right to say
anything except "yes sir"? See, that's just backwards. Intellectual values are
opposed to that kind of authoritarianism. That's what makes it morally superior
to tradition. It's the older social forms that tended to demand unquestioning
compliance and obedience. Sorry David, but I think you're very mixed up on
these issues.
If this is just a matter of disputing Bo's MOQ rather than Pirsig's then I
suggest you stop talking to Bo because I do not recognize the MOQ in anything
you're saying.
Makes me feel kinda sorry for our newcomers, who must be awfully confused and
maybe even think this is a real debate about Pirsig's actual views. Ouch. The
thought makes me cringe.
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