Bodvar I have been working on an answer to your last post. meanwhile, I'll try to see if I can incorporate it in answering your post. Self criticism is always the hardest. Like I said before, he is a bastard, but he is OUR bastard. You make lots of good points, lots of which I heard being talked about as a child. of course some things were talked about more hush hush than others.
[Bodvar] > Khaled and MOQ ers. > I notice that the Iranians now protest the once so longed for > Khomeini revolution and that shouts of "Allah Akbar" sound from rooftops, the > same shouts that sounded during the riots against Shah Reza, and > one can only say "poor buggers" who don't fathom that it is Allah - > or at least his prophet - they have to rebel against to become free. [Khaled] two points here. First, when the original revolution happened 20 years ago, those revolting in the streets never imagined a theocracy coming. or at least a brutal theocracy like they have now. Second, just like the french would say A Dieu, or the Spanish speaker say Adios, the invocation of God's name in the farewell becomes part of the language. Like when an achiest says "bless you" to someone sneezing, implying 'God Bless you". Yet again, shedding the religion that bound them will be their final freedom. That might come with time. by the way, Allahu Akbar means God is Greater[than] and not God is great. A closer translation would be Almighty God. [Bodvar] As long as Islam rules their lives the way it does their existence will be a > yoo- yoo between types of despotism. Their attitude toward religion is > the Muslim World's curse, but on that point they don't budge. The Koran > may be interpreted wrongly and this or that direction within Islam > - Wahabism for instance - may be bad, but Islam rules. Another point > that shows the difficulties the Muslims have with understanding the > Western World is for instance the Mohammed caricatures issue (a > Danish and Norwegian newspaper printed some such which caused > an uproar in the Middle East with burning down of embassies and > flags, they seem dead sure that the said states were behind the > caricatures, the fact that there is an independent press that can > print things without government consent is beyond their scope. [Khaled] I was thinking last time as to what does it take for a society to eventually be able to laugh at itself and at its religion. Can you imagine making a movie like Monty Python's the Life of Brian in the Arab or Muslim world. Oh I am pretty sure that when that movie came out there were a lots of feathers ruffled and demonstrations and boycotts. So ask yourself this: 'As an individual, what does it take for me to look at myself, see my faults, see my mistakes, and even laugh at myself'. Sometimes cultural barriers come in between society and the ability to poke fun at itself. In that part of the world, religion is a big taboo. Also. coming from a religion, where iconography is forbidden, that makes things even harder. Don't get me wrong, i agree with you that the newspapers are not government controlled, and it's a free society where freedom of speech in put in the utmost regard. Two bad things happen with the cartoon ( again i am not making excuses, just explaining) the first rule of iconography was broken, second, the prophet was portrayed in a negative way. Even if he cartoon WAS positive, the fact that the prophet was depicted in an image, is cause for uproar. Like when tourists are not allowed into Vatican city wearing shorts and mini skirts. There is also the fear, or what I consider the lack of faith. In Islam the wife of Adam is referred to as Hawa'a and the wife of Abraham is referred to as Sarah. yet, neither name is mentioned in the Qur'an. So they are relying on the old testament for such facts. then when you ask the Muslims if any have read the bible ( Old or New) they say no. Part of it is arrogance that their book is the final word, the other part is fear, that they might find something that will get them thinking, or heaven forbid, cause them to convert. I find that funny and that's why I call it lack of faith. Remember this is a book that, for a lack of better words, came down by fax. It's not the word of the prophets, it has not been translated, it's not the word of followers and disciples. it's the word of God. In Christianity the Miracle was Jesus, in Islam the miracle in the WORD. It starts to sound like a judge who says: " I can't do anything, that's the law. if rule other wise I will be overturned in a higher court." Again, they see the Law, or the Book, as having served them well to build and spread an empire. it worked then, so why shouldn't it work now. And that my friend is the million dollar question. How do you bring reformation about. keep your faith, but modernize your life. [Bodvar] No, IMO, democracy and religion in the "Semitic" form are incompatible, the same non- > secular/religion-schism-type Christendom once ruled in Europe up to > the Renaissance and Enlightenment which was a comeback of the > Greek attitude, and slowly the skeptical, scientific secular "SOM" > relegated religion the role of a mere subjective belief.. Thank God! [Khaled] I am wondering about something and hence my question. Didn't Christianity go through the same stuff, and they happen to have a 600 year head start to iron these problems out? Didn't the European monarchy see politics and religion as one. And when did they separate? [Bodvar] > And here is my own dilemma, one moment I applaud SOM's taking > religion down a peg, the next I applaud MOQ's taking the SOM down > several pegs. But I think these juggler's acts can be performed > successfully once we see religion as social value and the MOQ as > what robs SOM of its "M" and relegates it the role of intellectual > value.. [khaled] Well that's the golden ticket here. Do you have to believe in God in order for you not to steal, cheat and lie. Can you 'be good for goodness sake', and the yule tide song says, warning you that the Elf in the red suit is watching. The intellectual value. Now you are asking people to think for themselves, and that is the long journey ahead. khaled ____________________________________________________________ Weight Loss Program Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=pF5Si5rvpqpnfcOMF9Fh_AAAJ1BoN5MIA846iJgpKACKCvEMAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA= Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
