Hi Joe 12 Feb.:
Bo before: > And here is my own dilemma, one moment I applaud SOM's taking > religion down a peg, the next I applaud MOQ's taking the SOM down > several pegs. But I think these juggler's acts can be performed > successfully once we see religion as social value and the MOQ as > what robs SOM of its "M" and relegates it the role of intellectual > value.. Joe: > Putting the intellectual level above religious sentiment really ties > evolution into a knot. There is no place for religious enlightenment > when the intellectual level has veto power. Intellect is a mere static level and even if the highest such it's subordinated the DQ/SQ configuration, and "religion", what's that in a Q context? Of late I've seen arguments (in my "civilian" environment that is) about religion as impossible get rid of because it pops up in older forms as f.ex. remnants of the Norse Mythologies. My point is that if this is religion, then, what the MOQ calls "levels" are levels of religion and we have a Metaphysics of Religion. Regarding intellect's relationship with the MOQ I admit that it is problematic as I try to convey up above. It HAS veto power regarding the other levels but as the 4th. level the S/O distinction is not SOM any longer and "the brave new Q-based scientist" will not tear their hair and wring hands over Quantum Mech mysteries and the traditional "Semitic" type religions will not present themselves as alternatives to science and all that jazz. Do you see? No, I guess not. > There is no restraint on intellect. Where have you been Joe? MOQ's very purpose is to restrain the all- consuming Reason by relegating it the role of it's own 4th. level. Is it impossible to bring this point home? > Imho viewing religious enlightenment as a social level is not > workable. To let the genie out of the bottle, I view the MOQ as a Western enlightenment much more clear than the "mystical" oriental article. If that puts the MOQ in the religion category so be it. > It is only by positing a higher emotional, and a higher intellectual > level evolution in consciousness only that both religion and intellect > can find their limits. The MOQ levels are immensely wide categories - biology from bacteria to the mammal organism for instance - so the social level is as immense from whatever the fist social patterns were to the most refined patterns - IMO the Semitic type religions. (Emotions is what I call this level's "expression") and there may be infinite ways of grading this level and all levels, intellect included. > The schema for the evolution of religion as social, intellectual, is > unworkable. Religion for us Westerns is synonymous with the said Semitic kind, but the modern North European Christian type that has skipped much of the Abrahamic content is a religion too and maybe what you call "...religions as social, intellectual.." so you see a religion dominated by intellect will have to skip the Javeh or Allah type and concentrate on wisdom. Unworkable as pure social patterns ... yes! > If the social aspect of religion is seen as an indefinable emotional > level of evolution, then, the intellectual level has a place in > controlling an indefinable, DQ only, emotional level. Imho religion > crosses all levels of evolution. Hmm a bit deep one this. Emotions as the "social expression" I find most useful, but if it is indefinable? It's social, and intellect's role is to control emotions and promote reason. Religion crossing all levels? Pirsig deems classical religions to be social patterns, however if the term is enlarged to cover any "metaphysics" then the MOQ is a religion. IMO Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
