good point platt, maybe i am in error but perhaps we are dealing with a linguistic problem only. that is - this interior world, the imagination, the abstract plane - does not exist 'inside' the individual - it is abstract. the use of interior here is conventional. like colloquially saying 'its all in your head'. this abstract level sits fine in the hierarchy i believe.
this imaginative realm i think explains the circular nature of the hierarchy, of reality. linear reality/evolution seems akin to flat earth theory. what i am getting at is the enduring idea of cyclical evolution. seems that this is a metaphysical stalwart eg hindu cosmology. if reality is the product of the mind/word of the godhead, it seems fitting that the quaternary level of the MOQ hierarchy returns to that level of value...i know i am being vague here - just an intimation at mo - will get back to it more later after i have explored my feelings - luke skywalker style > From: Platt Holden <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MD] understanding the levels > To: [email protected] > Received: Friday, 26 February, 2010, 1:10 PM > Looks to me, gav, that you've put > yourself right back into the SOM soup with > your "interior world," completely ignoring Pirsig's > hierarchy of MORAL > levels and patterns. Pirsig's levels comprise a moral order > with only a > tangential relationship to the old SOM splits of > mind/matter, > inside/outside, interiors/exteriors. > . > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 7:33 PM, gav <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > no platt. > > the intellectual/individual level *is not about SOM*. > > i said that explicitly. *it is about the interior > world of imagination.* > > > > we use imagination - that interior world - > to construct SOM, SOL or any > > other concept! do you see? > > > > the interior world is the world of metaphor. literally > the translation of > > the outside world into an analogous interior world > that we can then play > > with as a god. this explains the massive intellectual > explosion around > > 500-700BC - when Jaynes postulates the breakdown of > the bicameral mind. it > > is this time that spawns the likes of heraclitus, > zoroaster, lao tzu, > > gautama buddha. > > > > if you wish to examine the foundations of this > interior world i recommend > > jaynes' 'breakdown of the bicameral mind (as the > origin of consciousness)'; > > which pirsig, i believe, recommends also. > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 26/2/10, Platt Holden <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > From: Platt Holden <[email protected]> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] understanding the levels > > > To: [email protected] > > > Received: Friday, 26 February, 2010, 9:36 AM > > > Thanks gav, you make a good case for > > > my suggestion to change the name of the > > > intellectual level to the individual level where > SOM reigns > > > supreme. > > > > > > Platt. > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 4:28 PM, gav <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > the MOQ is an evolutionary hierarchy. > > > > > > > > to understand it we need to tell the story > of the > > > evolution of its four > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > the first - the inorganic - is the level of > mineral > > > matter. at this level > > > > entropy is rule. but even at this level > there is the > > > prototype of the next > > > > level's (i believe this must be a feature of > all > > > levels - reminds one of the > > > > tai chi symbol) characteristics. that > prototype is the > > > crystal. the crystal > > > > seems to reproduce itself - but without any > > > modification. the crystal also > > > > seems to have other properties - > electromagnetic, > > > magical. some crystals > > > > seem to disobey the law of entropy - eg > diamond. gold > > > also seems to do this. > > > > they are intrusions of the eternal on the > temporal > > > plane. at the inorganic > > > > level intelligence is already manifest in > the > > > inorganic reactions that take > > > > place, in the properties of crystals and > metals and > > > also, most notably in > > > > the appearance of water. > > > > > > > > water is the key to the next level - water > is life, > > > intelligent, multiform, > > > > capable of memory and response. > > > > > > > > the second level - the biological - comes > about proper > > > when, in water, > > > > complex molecules are borne (lightning > strike? - > > > cosmogonical parallel - > > > > fire, air, earth, water) which can > reproduce > > > themselves - the forerunner of > > > > DNA and the cell. the key to the biological > level is > > > reproduction, > > > > reproduction with modification. evolution > now speeds > > > up. > > > > > > > > at the biological level extropy is the rule. > organisms > > > function > > > > synergistically, that is with a mechanical > efficiency > > > of more than 100%. > > > > > > > > with the appearance of flowering plants > things speed > > > up again. sexual > > > > reproduction has hit the scene and again we > get a > > > foretaste of the social - > > > > this mating function being the platform upon > which the > > > society will > > > > eventually base itself. > > > > > > > > also we see the social level foreshadowed in > the plant > > > and animal realm. > > > > most notably with bees and ants. these > developments > > > are accurate biological > > > > analogies for the coming age of man, and his > social > > > structures. > > > > > > > > the social level does not arrive proper > until we have > > > developed language > > > > and art and technology. the primates may be > argued to > > > be very primitive > > > > forerunners here. but the show doesn't > really hit the > > > road til we get > > > > vertical, and develop opposable thumb > action. it is > > > these factors that > > > > require greater cerebral coordination, which > produces > > > a neural net > > > > sufficient to allow the evolution of > language. > > > > > > > > the social level, by integrating > individuals > > > into larger and larger > > > > superorganisms, accelerates evolution once > more. > > > > > > > > the social level is still the dominant level > today. > > > the ego is the social > > > > level in the individual. society provides > meaning for > > > the individual through > > > > conformity - the individual sacrifices > his/her freedom > > > in order to be looked > > > > after by the mother-state. the parallel > twixt this and > > > the ant/bee world is > > > > clear. this is the world of the greek gods - > benign > > > sometimes, manipulative > > > > at others. today moloch or mammon seems to > capture the > > > social spirit best. > > > > > > > > as before the next level is foreshadowed. it > is > > > language and art here that > > > > start to question the divine right of the > gods - for > > > that is what society > > > > sees itself as, in relation to the > individual. this is > > > hubris on the part of > > > > society for the individual is as much 'god' > as itself > > > (perhaps more so). > > > > this hubris is the beginning of the end for > any > > > society, from rome to the > > > > 'new world order'. > > > > > > > > in greece the rebellion of prometheus, > bringing the > > > fire of intellect to > > > > man from the gods is key. eden too. > the key is > > > rebellion. > > > > > > > > the next level is borne of the growing > sophistication > > > of language. the > > > > power of self-reflection comes with the > abstract plane > > > of consciousness. > > > > this more than any other single thing > defines the > > > intellectual level (not > > > > SOL). *it is an interior world, of > imagination*. > > > imagination now accelerates > > > > evolution exponentially. > > > > > > > > this interior world is the barrier between > the gods > > > and the individual. and > > > > remember that society is a god - moloch, in > this > > > context. the imagination > > > > frees the individual from the social - but > it is his > > > choice. does he follow > > > > the old road of social conformity, or take > the > > > difficult high pass of his > > > > own conscience? this is the existential > question. > > > > > > > > the individual now divorced from gods (the > fall) is > > > reconnected to them at > > > > a higher level through the hero's journey. > by > > > undergoing trials by fire, > > > > whether through ritual or not, he is forged > in the > > > crucible of the world - > > > > gold sublimated from base metal. the mystery > of the > > > cross is understood with > > > > the whole being, the delphic mission > complete - the > > > logos inhabited and > > > > destroyed. man is now one with the godhead - > the > > > source of all gods. he has > > > > become morally superior to society and is no > longer > > > subject to its laws or > > > > commands. for he lives by a higher law, that > is > > > incorporated into his very > > > > being. he returns to society with the gift > of life and > > > society is > > > > transformed by his return - the balance of > nature is > > > restored when > > > > transformed, the hero returns, with love, to > the fold > > > of humanity. love is > > > > the knowledge of god, of self that reason > can never > > > achieve. > > > > > > > > this is all made up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
