Hey gav, Abstract thinking seems to fit the subjective side of the subject/object division perfectly. But, since you make no attempt in your hierarchy to match the hierarchy of the MOQ in which there is a linear moral improvement over time, there's not much to say except your perspective is certainly different from Pirsig's. In fact your circular evolution concept, based on Hindu cosmology, may be more enlightened. Time will tell I guess. What I especially like is your willingness to challenge orthodox interpretations of the MOQ like Pirsig encouraged us to do. Such contrarian views can break new ground of high value.
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:42 PM, gav <[email protected]> wrote: > good point platt, > maybe i am in error but perhaps we are dealing with a linguistic problem > only. > that is - this interior world, the imagination, the abstract plane - does > not exist 'inside' the individual - it is abstract. the use of interior here > is conventional. like colloquially saying 'its all in your head'. > this abstract level sits fine in the hierarchy i believe. > > this imaginative realm i think explains the circular nature of the > hierarchy, of reality. linear reality/evolution seems akin to flat earth > theory. > > what i am getting at is the enduring idea of cyclical evolution. seems that > this is a metaphysical stalwart eg hindu cosmology. > > if reality is the product of the mind/word of the godhead, it seems fitting > that the quaternary level of the MOQ hierarchy returns to that level of > value...i know i am being vague here - just an intimation at mo - will get > back to it more later after i have explored my feelings - luke skywalker > style > > > From: Platt Holden <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [MD] understanding the levels > > To: [email protected] > > Received: Friday, 26 February, 2010, 1:10 PM > > Looks to me, gav, that you've put > > yourself right back into the SOM soup with > > your "interior world," completely ignoring Pirsig's > > hierarchy of MORAL > > levels and patterns. Pirsig's levels comprise a moral order > > with only a > > tangential relationship to the old SOM splits of > > mind/matter, > > inside/outside, interiors/exteriors. > > . > > > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 7:33 PM, gav <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > no platt. > > > the intellectual/individual level *is not about SOM*. > > > i said that explicitly. *it is about the interior > > world of imagination.* > > > > > > we use imagination - that interior world - > > to construct SOM, SOL or any > > > other concept! do you see? > > > > > > the interior world is the world of metaphor. literally > > the translation of > > > the outside world into an analogous interior world > > that we can then play > > > with as a god. this explains the massive intellectual > > explosion around > > > 500-700BC - when Jaynes postulates the breakdown of > > the bicameral mind. it > > > is this time that spawns the likes of heraclitus, > > zoroaster, lao tzu, > > > gautama buddha. > > > > > > if you wish to examine the foundations of this > > interior world i recommend > > > jaynes' 'breakdown of the bicameral mind (as the > > origin of consciousness)'; > > > which pirsig, i believe, recommends also. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 26/2/10, Platt Holden <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Platt Holden <[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] understanding the levels > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Received: Friday, 26 February, 2010, 9:36 AM > > > > Thanks gav, you make a good case for > > > > my suggestion to change the name of the > > > > intellectual level to the individual level where > > SOM reigns > > > > supreme. > > > > > > > > Platt. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 4:28 PM, gav <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > the MOQ is an evolutionary hierarchy. > > > > > > > > > > to understand it we need to tell the story > > of the > > > > evolution of its four > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > the first - the inorganic - is the level of > > mineral > > > > matter. at this level > > > > > entropy is rule. but even at this level > > there is the > > > > prototype of the next > > > > > level's (i believe this must be a feature of > > all > > > > levels - reminds one of the > > > > > tai chi symbol) characteristics. that > > prototype is the > > > > crystal. the crystal > > > > > seems to reproduce itself - but without any > > > > modification. the crystal also > > > > > seems to have other properties - > > electromagnetic, > > > > magical. some crystals > > > > > seem to disobey the law of entropy - eg > > diamond. gold > > > > also seems to do this. > > > > > they are intrusions of the eternal on the > > temporal > > > > plane. at the inorganic > > > > > level intelligence is already manifest in > > the > > > > inorganic reactions that take > > > > > place, in the properties of crystals and > > metals and > > > > also, most notably in > > > > > the appearance of water. > > > > > > > > > > water is the key to the next level - water > > is life, > > > > intelligent, multiform, > > > > > capable of memory and response. > > > > > > > > > > the second level - the biological - comes > > about proper > > > > when, in water, > > > > > complex molecules are borne (lightning > > strike? - > > > > cosmogonical parallel - > > > > > fire, air, earth, water) which can > > reproduce > > > > themselves - the forerunner of > > > > > DNA and the cell. the key to the biological > > level is > > > > reproduction, > > > > > reproduction with modification. evolution > > now speeds > > > > up. > > > > > > > > > > at the biological level extropy is the rule. > > organisms > > > > function > > > > > synergistically, that is with a mechanical > > efficiency > > > > of more than 100%. > > > > > > > > > > with the appearance of flowering plants > > things speed > > > > up again. sexual > > > > > reproduction has hit the scene and again we > > get a > > > > foretaste of the social - > > > > > this mating function being the platform upon > > which the > > > > society will > > > > > eventually base itself. > > > > > > > > > > also we see the social level foreshadowed in > > the plant > > > > and animal realm. > > > > > most notably with bees and ants. these > > developments > > > > are accurate biological > > > > > analogies for the coming age of man, and his > > social > > > > structures. > > > > > > > > > > the social level does not arrive proper > > until we have > > > > developed language > > > > > and art and technology. the primates may be > > argued to > > > > be very primitive > > > > > forerunners here. but the show doesn't > > really hit the > > > > road til we get > > > > > vertical, and develop opposable thumb > > action. it is > > > > these factors that > > > > > require greater cerebral coordination, which > > produces > > > > a neural net > > > > > sufficient to allow the evolution of > > language. > > > > > > > > > > the social level, by integrating > > individuals > > > > into larger and larger > > > > > superorganisms, accelerates evolution once > > more. > > > > > > > > > > the social level is still the dominant level > > today. > > > > the ego is the social > > > > > level in the individual. society provides > > meaning for > > > > the individual through > > > > > conformity - the individual sacrifices > > his/her freedom > > > > in order to be looked > > > > > after by the mother-state. the parallel > > twixt this and > > > > the ant/bee world is > > > > > clear. this is the world of the greek gods - > > benign > > > > sometimes, manipulative > > > > > at others. today moloch or mammon seems to > > capture the > > > > social spirit best. > > > > > > > > > > as before the next level is foreshadowed. it > > is > > > > language and art here that > > > > > start to question the divine right of the > > gods - for > > > > that is what society > > > > > sees itself as, in relation to the > > individual. this is > > > > hubris on the part of > > > > > society for the individual is as much 'god' > > as itself > > > > (perhaps more so). > > > > > this hubris is the beginning of the end for > > any > > > > society, from rome to the > > > > > 'new world order'. > > > > > > > > > > in greece the rebellion of prometheus, > > bringing the > > > > fire of intellect to > > > > > man from the gods is key. eden too. > > the key is > > > > rebellion. > > > > > > > > > > the next level is borne of the growing > > sophistication > > > > of language. the > > > > > power of self-reflection comes with the > > abstract plane > > > > of consciousness. > > > > > this more than any other single thing > > defines the > > > > intellectual level (not > > > > > SOL). *it is an interior world, of > > imagination*. > > > > imagination now accelerates > > > > > evolution exponentially. > > > > > > > > > > this interior world is the barrier between > > the gods > > > > and the individual. and > > > > > remember that society is a god - moloch, in > > this > > > > context. the imagination > > > > > frees the individual from the social - but > > it is his > > > > choice. does he follow > > > > > the old road of social conformity, or take > > the > > > > difficult high pass of his > > > > > own conscience? this is the existential > > question. > > > > > > > > > > the individual now divorced from gods (the > > fall) is > > > > reconnected to them at > > > > > a higher level through the hero's journey. > > by > > > > undergoing trials by fire, > > > > > whether through ritual or not, he is forged > > in the > > > > crucible of the world - > > > > > gold sublimated from base metal. the mystery > > of the > > > > cross is understood with > > > > > the whole being, the delphic mission > > complete - the > > > > logos inhabited and > > > > > destroyed. man is now one with the godhead - > > the > > > > source of all gods. he has > > > > > become morally superior to society and is no > > longer > > > > subject to its laws or > > > > > commands. for he lives by a higher law, that > > is > > > > incorporated into his very > > > > > being. he returns to society with the gift > > of life and > > > > society is > > > > > transformed by his return - the balance of > > nature is > > > > restored when > > > > > transformed, the hero returns, with love, to > > the fold > > > > of humanity. love is > > > > > the knowledge of god, of self that reason > > can never > > > > achieve. > > > > > > > > > > this is all made up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
