John said to dmb:
I came to the table ...my enthusiasm ...was constantly countered with wiki
definitions ..and disparagments ...based upon second-hand cliff note versions.
dmb says:
Dude, you're being unreasonable. I've explained my reasons for thinking Royce
doesn't fit and backed them up with quotes from James, Pirsig and other
philosophers. I resorted to Wiki only in that spot where you couldn't or
wouldn't say what Royce's Absolute is. In any case, I think it's completely
unfair to characterize those efforts as second-hand cliff note disparagements.
That textual evidence was very clear and it doesn't take a fancy method to see
how it supports my views on this. I mean, you are not only unmoved by evidence
and reason, you heap insults and contempt upon them. If that's not unreasonable
then I don't what could be. Jeez. Give it a rest, will you.
Or better yet, how about if you chill out and entertain the possibility - just
for the fun of it - that I might actually have a good point. (Gasp!) I know,
it's a shocking thought. Seems crazy at first but surely somebody as
open-minded as you can warm up to such an outrageous thought eventually, right?
John said:
Nobody outside this forum gives a fig for the MoQ. Pirsig's just another
author in a world full of 'em, and reading books is boring.
dmb says:
That's not exactly true. Pragmatism is very mainstream these days so Pirsig's
main ideas are already out there in circulation. It would even be fair to say
that it's fashionable these days. I'm overwhelmed at what stroke of luck this
is. I don't see how things could be riper for Pirsig's work and I think I see
an opening, but you don't you care that. The point is, lots of people give a
fig. I'd cite sources as evidence but you don't care about that either.
John said:
The only reason I brought Royce up David, was to illustrate a point I was
trying to make that being so closed off to reading Royce, James's lifetime
friend and sparring partner, sorta revealed something about you. That's the
advantage of intersubjective dialogue, to get differing perspectives on the
self. But once again, seeing the reaction I get, I ask myself again, "why
bother?" But this time, since it concerns you directly, I'm asking the wrong
person when I ask myself. I should be asking you.
dmb says:
Am I "closed off" to Royce and that reveals something about me? Pretending that
I didn't give my reasons or support them with the relevant textual evidence
just won't work. All this stuff is recorded and archived. I can play the tape
so denying it will only make you look dishonest. You've shoved the actual
reasons aside and replaced them with sinister motives and character flaws. I
believe that's called "adding insult to injury". Who is being closed-minded
here, John? You're the one who literally refuses to even acknowledge that
reasons count as reasons. Who deserves to be asking themselves, "why bother"?
Seriously, man, why are those reasons not good enough? Why don't they count?
How does your refusal to acknowledge such evidence NOT count as being "closed
off" or "closed-minded"? Don't you think this refusal reveals something about
you? Don't you think it sends a clear message? To me, it clearly says that
trying to reason with you on this topic is quite futile. I suspect that's
because you are powerfully committed to some theistic, absolutist beliefs and
that means contrary evidence is perceived as a painful thing that could only
come from monsters. Thus my reasons are a form of evil and they only prove that
there must be something wrong me. That's not how you defend an idea unless
you're some kind of fanatic.
And I'd be happy to admit you trying to make a case when you cite Royce or a
secondary source like Kuklick but I really don't know how to handle that stuff
without some explanations from you as to its meaning, its context, the
definitions of the terms as he's using them. Most of the time, I just don't see
what it's supposed to mean, your answer to the evolution question for example.
Huh?
That dude has got to have the most unfortunate name ever, by the way. The
conversation on campus that gets repeated over and over probably goes something
like this: "Are you taking the Kuklick course this semester?" "No, my boyfriend
already taught me how." And then they both laugh like they were the first ones
to ever make that joke.
Kids. Whatya gonna do?
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