gav said to dmb:
i need to apologise to you dave? what for? for disagreeing? ...i think the MOQ
is in danger of adopting dawkins as its pin up boy - that's weird for ya....and
again dawkin's single biggest fault - the main thrust behind his moronic
position - historical ignorance, he even admits it! ...dave your ego has become
monstrous - and uni is perhaps to blame, sorry if this offends you but i am not
here to stroke you mate
dmb says:
I think you owe me an apology for this too. It's just one insult piled on top
of another. What's worse, this repeats the insult and injury that prompted me
to ask for the first apology.
On 2/27 you said I protest too much about theism, as if my position had no
merit, as if it were some kind of personal failing, demanded humility as if
it's hubristic to have a position, and complained that I should also condemn
materialistic science. But, as I tried to explain when I asked for that
apology, my comments did include a condemnation of materialist science and the
case against theism was a response to a specific claim. I repeated the post you
were complaining about and walked you through it to show that it was not at all
the way you so unkindly characterized it. I think you might have been stoned
when you responded to that because you seemed quite confused, at one point even
asking why I was saying all that, as if you didn't even realize it was a
re-posting. You responded to the request for an apology with something like,
"it's not about that, man.
It's not a big deal but usually people who think they're owed an apology feel
that they've been injured, hurt or unfairly treated. And so how do you respond
to that? You add more injury and more unfair treatment of exactly the same
kind. I thought we were friends so now I'm sad as well as hurt.
Just for the record, here is the original post that you provoked you in the
first place. Take another look and ask yourself if it really calls for such a
treatment. Am I protesting TOO much? How do you figure this isn't humble
enough? What makes you think this displays ignorance or egotism? That's the
reaction you gave that I think is so unfair. Seriously, tell me specifically
where these faults are in this post.....
-------------------------------------------------
Ron said:
W.James makes a similar statement that religion is indeed pragmatically useful
that is why he and Pirsig agree that religion and science do not conflict,
incorporating both the rationalist and the empiricist.
dmb quotes:
"The theistic conception, picturing God and his creation as entities distinct
from each other, still leaves the human subject outside of the deepest reality
in the universe. God is from eternity complete, it says, and sufficient unto
himself; he throws off the world by a free act and as an extraneous substance,
and he throws off man as a third substance, extraneous to both the world and
himself. ...An orthodox theism has been so jealous of God's glory that it has
taken pains to exaggerate everything in the notion of him that could make for
isolation and separateness. Page upon page in scholastic books go to prove that
God is in so sense implicated by his creative act, or involved in his creation.
That this relation to the creatures he has made should make any difference to
him, carry any consequence, or qualify his being, is repudiated as a
pantheistic slur upon his self-sufficingness. His action can affect us, but he
can never be affected by our reaction. ...This essential d
ualism of the theistic view has all sorts of collateral consequences. Man
being an outsider and a mere subject to God, not his intimate partner, a
character of externality invades the field."
(William James in A PLURALISTIC UNIVERSE)
"The notion that James advocated belief in what is personally attractive,
without scrupulous regard for all factual considerations, and for the
theological implications of these considerations, is utterly false. Any belief,
religious or otherwise, James argues repeatedly, must be made to square with
all the relevant facts about the world presently at our disposal. Among such
facts, in the case of religion for example, is some version of natural
selection. ...The world may be creation but it is also food chain. Nowhere does
James allow that personal utility of religious belief would in any way justify
ignoring such facts." (Hunter Brown in WILLIAM JAMES ON RADICAL EMPIRICISM AND
RELIGION, 2000)
On top of the main point, which is to show that James does not endorse mere
utility, I'd also point out that the "essential dualism of the theistic view"
that makes man "extraneous to both the world and himself" has SOM as one of its
collateral consequences. I mean, the idea that we (subjects) are ontologically
distinct from the world (objective reality) has grown almost directly out of
theism. In fact, elsewhere James says that the Cartesian subject is a
quasi-secularized version of the Christian soul. It occurs to me now that the
notion of one eternal Truth beyond the grasp of we mere mortals is common to
both theism and scientific materialism.
I mean, there are lots of philosophical reasons for rejecting theism and it's
not just a coincidence that they overlap with the reasons for rejecting SOM.
But apparently there are people who think theism is somehow a better option
than scientific materialism and because Pirsig rejects scientific materialism,
they imagine they'll find some comfort in the MOQ, some sympathy for their
theism. The philosophical mysticism might make it look even more tempting to a
theist, but those sections of Lila are actually where we find the MOQ's most
elaborate anti-theistic arguments. I really don't think it can be done. Given
all that, it seems to me that trying to squeeze an endorsement of theism out of
Pirsig's isn't just incorrect, it's also kinda sleazy.
The thing is, there is quite a bit of amazing wisdom on spiritual matters in
there. If there is a hunger for such things and you're willing to drop the
theism just long enough to listen to what Pirsig actually says about, what
other mystics actually say, I think you'll find something gooder.
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