Oops, I should have said, "Match goes to Mary, Take care that it doesn't go to your head!"
John On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:56 AM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: > Matt and Mary, > > Nice conversation you guys. I just want to jump in on a point or more: > > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Matt Kundert < > [email protected]> wrote: > > >> I thought you were >> right: this does appear to be a root disagreement, >> because--as I reconstruct--you want to make humility a >> philosophical assertion (about which may or may not be >> assented to) and I want to leave it a personal virtue. > > > John: > > That's an interesting debate. And I see Mary's point. I agree with her. > I think humility is more than a personal virtue, I believe it is a key > philosophical foundation. My mind shoots back to an Ellul quote I pasted > once or twice "Only Socrates speaks truly because only Socrates listens." > Um... no, that wasn't exactly an Ellul quote, it was Ellul quoting > Kierkegaard. About philosophers who talk and talk of systems, they "build > castles out of air and live beside them in a hut. " > > The point there, and you should appreciate this Matt, is that Philosophy > isn't about expounding systems, Philosophy is about conversation. And to > have conversation, you must listen as well as speak. And without humility, > there is no listening. > > Mary 1 > Matt 0 > > > Matt: > > >> You >> think that the philosophical assertion is important, I think >> because it leads to personal humility (something along the >> lines of "Pirsig and the Buddha held this thesis about >> humility, therefore their own personal humility was a >> consequence of it"). I think just the opposite happens. I >> think once one turns it into a philosophical assertion, you >> pave the way for ignoring humility. >> >> > > John: > > Well on the first part, if you are construing Mary properly, I agree with > you Matt, at least as far as precedence. I think philosophy is a > consequence of humility rather than the other way around. Philosophy is > born when we first ask and we only ask when we're not sure we already know > it all. > > What is the paving mechanism? How does that work? Are you saying that > making it a philosophical assertion thereby includes it as system, and > obviates it's usefulness? > That might be true, in a way, but you'd have to make it more clear. Half a > point to Matt. > > > >> But when I opened up this area where it would seem we >> disagree, you thought I was saying _you_ have a >> personality fault, "always be right," or that I didn't think >> you had a right to speak up, or were being overly >> assertive. Your post was refreshing absent of acrimony >> (despite the fact that expressions of "I hope for your sake >> you grow out of what you think some day" seem naturally >> condescending, but what else is really at stake when we >> engage in the act of persuasion). I thought I mentioned >> that. But I do absolutely think that in the long run, >> adherence to your view has more potential to create >> acrimonious people than my view, as counterintuitive as >> that may seem. And it's for the reason Pirsig laid out at >> the end of ZMM, when you make the Good subservient to >> the True, which is what I think happens when you >> makeover humility into a philosophical thesis. >> > > > John: > > The thing about "counterintuitive" is that it needs more explication than > the intuitive. So I need to see how you think Mary's view does this. I > take it you equate philosophical thesis with a formulation of truth, and > humility as formulation of good. But what I'm saying, and it seems to me > Mary could be coming from this place as well, is that philosophy only can > happen in the context of this good - humility. > > Truth, especially if arrogantly formulated, will have less persuasive > impact than error that is part of a process that attains truth in the end > because its open-ended, provisional and humble. > > Match goes to Mary. > > Take care, > > John > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
