Hi Bo
I doubt there'll be a great amount of disagreement with Dave re: the mythos.
As I said in a previous post:
On 26/06/2010 00:47, Horse wrote:
Hi Krim
I think that both Mythos and Logos are tools of the Intellectual level
(ideas about ideas) that use the Social level to propagate heir
content - and I think this is probably why Pirsig sees Culture as a
combination of Intellectual patterns and Social patterns. Ideas on
their own are pretty much locked into the Intellectual level and
require Social level practices in order to shift and spread from one
location (e.g me) to other locations (e.g. you and others on this list).
The mythos, although originating for the most part at the intellectual
level is dominant at the social level. There are parallels here with,
for example, the law. Both are Intellectual in origin, and dominant at
the social level. There are aspects of the mythos that are also similar
to the law, in that part of the mythos' purpose is rein in biological
(anti-social) behaviour. Do what the gods want or else you're in for a
whole lot of pain. The mythos has other purposes as well such as
explaining how the world began, why our tribe is justified in stomping
on yours etc. etc. but notice that it is still to do with ideas and the
mythos is still an intellectual tool (ideas about ideas).
Also note that both the mythos and the logos are still centred around
memes - different types of memes but memes nonetheless.
At least that's how I see it and unlike you Bo, I'm open to discussion
and, where it makes sense, to modification of my ideas - I may be right
or I may be wrong, but my ego won't blind me to common sense. I also
don't have to mangle the MoQ, resort to calling Pirsig either a coward
or not understanding his own work or talk complete gibberish in order to
put those ideas across.
To be sure, there are areas where I have minor disagreements with Pirsig
- such as the age of intellectual patterns of value - but I don't think
that this either undermines or damages the MoQ in any way.
Anyway, I'm sure that if Dave has a major disagreement with me he'll say
so. If he does we'll have a discussion about it and see where we go from
there. What I'm quite sure about though is that neither of us will need
the SOL to figure out or solve any differences we may have.
Cheers
Horse
On 27/06/2010 19:48, [email protected] wrote:
Horse
26 June you wrote:
Another disagreement here. The mythos is not the social level, it is
the means by which ideas propagate. Ideas about Gods and such but
still ideas nonetheless. Both mythos and logos are tools. You really
have lost your way with the MoQ.
Check with DMB. In a recent post he made exactly that equation:
Mythos = social value. Logos = intellectual ditto. He is the authority in
your quarters... no? And that is another SOL proof is unnecessary to
say.
Bodvar
Horse
On 26/06/2010 09:30, [email protected] wrote:
Krimel
25 June:
Horse had said:
As far as I can see, your biggest mistake is to confuse the data of
the intellectual level with the tools that manipulate that data.
The intellectual level is composed of ideas (data) and SOM, MoQ,
metaphysics in general, science, philosophy, mathematics etc. are
the means by which they are ordered, manipulated and presented
(tools - or ideas about ideas). At least, that's my take on it.
Ideas can be good or bad, supported or unsupported, weird or normal
and a number of shades in between! Similarly, the tools used (ideas
about ideas) can be simple or complicated, complete or incomplete
etc. etc.
[Krimel]
That is pretty close the position I have pushed for. I wonder if
you would agree that this puts both the Mythos and the Logos on the
intellectual level as well?
I do hope that Horse reads this sees what strange bedfellows his
anti- SOLism brings. You bet that it puts the Mythos (social level)
and Logos (Intellectual level) on the "intellectual level". SOM's
philosophical idealism makes absolutely everything "intellectual" in
the Intellect=Mind sense.
Bodvar
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