Ham, John prev:
>> What about the aspects of existence that have no recognizable >> appearance? If you say that without appearance there is no existence, >> I'm gonna send you back to the empiricism from whence you came. >> > > Ham: > I presume you mean "aspects" such as quality, dynamics, relations, order, > design, beauty, morality, desirability, importance, and sensory > attributions. John: Yes, good presumption. I didn't imagine that list exactly, but you obviously grasp the gist of my objection. Ham: These are all psycho-emotional affects of value-sensibility projected by the > self into otherness. > > John: I disagree. Self and otherness both are constructs whose construction are in many important ways, derived from the aspects as you name them. And your "psycho-emotional affects" sounds to me like a fancy-shmancy way of saying what everybody calls the "its only in your mind" fallacy. > John: > > Appearance is subjective. >> > > Ham: > In a word, yes. Appearance is what we're aware of, which is subjective. > However, neither the appearance nor the subjective awareness of it exists > independently of a primary source. > > John: By "primary source", do you mean the "thing that made everything but we don't have a name for" ? Because while I sorta think Craig makes a good point about just positing absolute creators out of thin air is silly, I do appreciate your coming up with a much handier label for It. > > 5) The primary difference is the provisional separation of >>> proprietary sensibility from the undivided source. >>> >> >> Provisional upon what? More subjectivism. >> > > Ham: > Time, space, finitude, dependence, life/death, being/nothing, contrariety, > uncertainty. > > John: As I said, mere subjectivism. "Time and space are mere constructs of the animal mind." - Dr. Lanza > > 6) Life is an individual experience the essence of which is >>> value-sensibility. >>> >> >> Life is certainly bigger than any individual's experience. >> This is a major "duh". >> > > Ham: > Life is not quantifiable in terms of vastness or size. All or ANY life is > an individual experience. Existence for any individual is his/her > life-experience. John: An individual's existence is certainly quantifable, but life itself is not, I agree completely. Infinity is no quantifiable, that certainly makes it "bigger" than any individual existence, which is. > > > 7) Cognizant awareness, feeling, knowledge, interpretation, >>> intellection, and realization are proprietary to the individual. >>> >> >> Disagree completely. All those things are relative and arise only in >> intersubjective comparison. >> > > Ham: > "Relative", yes, since all awareness is dependent on otherness. > "Intersubjective", no. > (Possibly you meant to say "interrelational.") > > John: Perhaps you are right. I'm thinking of a Pirsig quote I clipped out to my desktop, on "intersubjective agreement" that describes my thinking to a "t". I'll try and dig it up, or find a Royce quote that supports what i mean as well. I'm not as eloquently learned enough to get it exactly right on the bullseye, first arrow. But I mean more than merely relational. I mean that meaning and awareness are social constructs, definitely not proprietary to individuality. > >> 8) Experience is the objective representation of value realized. >>> >> >> See above. >> >> 9) Unrealized value does not exist. >>> >> >> Hey! I think I agree with this one. >> >> 10) Man is a "free agent" in that he has the innate capacity >>> to act in accordance with his proprietary value orientation. >>> >> >> And this one. We're on a roll now. Except for that troublesome part >> about >> >>> value being proprietary. >>> >> >> 11) All truth is relative. Access to "absolute truth" is >>> inimical to individual freedom. >>> >> >> Truth is an idealized absolute. An individual's apprehension of truth >> is relative. >> > > Essentially, isn't that what I'm saying? > > John: Ok, sometimes it's hard to tell, Ham. :-) > I do appreciate your response, John. We need to have more discussions. > > Essentially yours, > > Ham > > Well, I've got more time these days. Always glad to discuss with you, Ham. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
