> [Krimel] > The 4th level is ideas, concepts and they can exist separated from > "minds".
[Bo] No, if so the "idea" to make flint tools was an intellectual pattern and the Neanderthals were intellectuals. [Krimel] Yes, flint tools and cave painting are intellectual patterns or patterns that reflect the use of intellect and they are part of the intellectual level. [Bo] Snap out of the notion that anything we think is intellect, it's not right even in SOM, my dictionary correctly defines intellect as the ability to distinguish what's subjective from what's objective, i.e. the S/O distinction. Spot on! The snag is that even my dictionary says "...the power of mind to distinguish" and hence the conclusion that because this goes on in our minds "intellect = MIND". You somists have the SOM culture behind you while we poor moqists have to resolve metaphysical disputes in every sentence. [Krimel] I said the intellectual level is made up of encoded ideas. It doesn't matter whether anyone is thinking them at the moment or not. You have mentioned your dictionary many times. Get a new one or use the internet. Your dictionary and the internet are part of the intellectual level to BTW. > [Krimel] > Books and motorcycles have ideas encoded in them. They are > part of the 4th level. [Bo] Yes from inside SOM - inside the intellectual level - printed text, books, hieroglyphs and cuneiform clay tablets express IDEAS, but from the MOQ seen cuneiform tablets, hieroglyphs, Bible, Koran, Talmud ...etc express SOCIAL,value while Aristotle, Newton and Krimel's texts express INTELLECTUAL value. And - mark you - intellet's S/O is the highest and best static value, but is subordinated the DQ/SQ system. [Krimel] No, all you are saying is that ideas you like are part of the intellectual level and ideas you don't like are part of the social. That's just dishonest. > [Krimel] > Ideas are intellectual patterns and while they originate in minds and > are shared by minds they are not confined to minds. [Bo] "Ideas as intellectual patterns" is an unsavory mixture of MOQ and SOM. [Krimel] But it is ok that the inorganic level is made up of inorganic patterns and the biological level is made up of biological patterns and the social level is made up of social patterns? WTF? [Bo] In MOQ there are "intellectual patterns" and they are invariably S/O-ish in some or other form. Inside intellect however - in S/O-land - there are ideas that may manifest as material artefacts - as a motorcycle f.ex. - but they originate in minds and as ideas are confined to minds. [Krimel] No! An intellectual pattern is a pattern that can be passed around and shared with others. It is an idea expressed in a way that others can decode its meaning and share it. But it is not confined to a mind. It can be carved in stone, printed on a page or flung into outer space piggybacked onto electromagnetic radiation. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
