[Krimel] But from an ontological standpoint the only sense we have that actually gives us direct experience of three dimensions is touch. Constructing 3D from sight is always a perceptual process as the information is always presented to us on the 2D surface of our retinas.
Ron: I think this is a bit misguided given that 2-D is a pure abstraction. No surface is two dimensional, else there is no surface. This would be a good discussion regarding "points" and "lines" This would be fun to pursue. [Krimel] Every geometry teacher since Euclid has had to explain that our diagrams in math are abstractions and represent the concepts. They point to the moon. They are not the moon. Ron: I think it helps to remember that first and foremost, we are dealing with a value centered metaphysics. Personal value, not an ontological absolute. If experience is reality the the four levels apply to personal experience and the contexts we share, and verify and agree apon or disagree apon. Pirsig would state that we all share inorganic and organic value but we do not share social and intellectual values. The values are discreet because we they represent the good in different contexts. [Krimel] A case that I think was not well made and has led to years of misunderstanding. I think we share social and intellectual values just as readily as we share inorganic and biological values. I am not sure why you think we can't. Context is always a major determinate of value and context is always changing as are our values. If asked about context or value we can usually supply a ready answer on the fly and often in terms of levels created on the fly. Ron: because they are variable contexts of "good" a biological good will compete or conflict with a social good. Pirsig is trying break experience down into general principles of being, Four general types of value preference. [Krimel] I don't think this is true at all. It is a gross distortion to say that all life is at odds with the force of gravity for example. Life as we know it depends on the force of gravity. The fact that we stand upright and move around does not put us at odds with gravity. The fact that birds can fly puts them in harmony with the air not at adds with gravity. Good and bad in this context is purely matters of prejudice and sentence construction. Whose glass is half full and whose is half empty. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
