[Platt] Your view is that the only legitimate "honest inquiry" is one that adheres to the assumptions and methods of SOM science. Fine for acquiring knowledge about inorganic and biological patterns. No argument there. But, not so good for social, intellectual and artistic patterns. And, no good at all for determining the value of anything.
[Krimel] That is not what I have been saying at all. You keep interpreting the Academy to mean "science." Science is only one part of the Academy which include the pursuit of all sorts of knowledge wisdom and expression. [Krimel said] Journalists have their own set of ethical guidelines for determining what is worth reporting, how to report on differences of opinion and for assessing standards of truth. [Platt] Lawyers follow strict rules of argument and evidence, politicians are held to account by the electorate, purveyors of propaganda exist in the eye of the beholder with journalists among the purveyors. [Krimel] Both lawyers and politician as I said are sophists advancing a particular point of view to the exclusion of or denigration of other points of view. A journalist's professional obligation is to present both sides or disputes in a way that does justice to both. To the extent that that fail in this and become "purveyors" they fail as journalists. Fox News is the first "news" organization I am aware of that elevates this failure to the status of virtue. [Platt] Appears you equate "honest inquiry" with the academy and the academy with wisdom. Talk about hutzpah. As for sacrificing material comforts, there are millions of hard working people struggling to make ends meet who would love to get vacations every five or six weeks, three months off every summer, a year long sabbatical every seven years or so, and a guaranteed job for life. [Krimel] So perhaps they ought to consider the sacrifices needed to enter into teaching worth the effort. Or perhaps they should move to France or some other enlightened democracy where personal and family values are taken seriously instead of merely talked about then pissed on. [Platt] You mean science is skeptical of and constantly questions their assumptions of determinism, reductionism, materialism, and emergentism? I'd love to see some evidence. [Krimel] Pick up a copy of "Science" or "Nature" or any such journal. [Platt] You mean to tell me that practitioners of the disciplines you mention think but don't believe they think about things? Who is doing all this "honest inquiry" if it isn't a subject looking at object data? That reminds me: we can add another assumption of SOM science -- externalism. [Krimel] The ways that people characterize this process are legion. Subject/object is just one of them. Some in say the theology department might hold for example that thoughts are reflections of the mind of God. [Platt] In the annals of history much knowledge has been gained and many inventions made outside the academy. The larger drug companies have their own research departments. [Krimel] Corporations like drug companies typically do independent research to expand on the discoveries that results from academic research. They seek to commercialize and expand on potentially profitable avenues of research. This is not at all the same thing as the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. [Platt] Your list of artists who have used advances within the academy is unconvincing without evidence. [Krimel] Then let me expand my statement to include ALL artists. Artist rely entirely on the fruits of technology for the production of their art. From cave paintings to webisodes, art is expressed through technology. [Platt] As for who "exploits" whom, the prize goes to the academy who exploits the profits of enterprise, either granted voluntarily or, in many cases, by coercion. Where do you think those multi-billion dollar endowments come from? Where do you think those multi-billions are invested? [Krimel] Actually I suspect that if the government insisted on retaining the right to income from the discoveries it has financed, taxation would be a thing of the past. Satellite communication is an example, it is simply would not exist at all without government funding for research and development. I remember with the original Telstar satellite was launched and the money it was suppose to generate was to be put back into funding public broadcasting. But the technology was instead turned over to private enterprise for free. Like the discoveries of basic medical research this is nothing but corporate welfare. [Platt] Or ask anyone who was machine-gunned in WWI, or anyone who was gassed in a shower room in WWII, or anyone leaped to his death from the Twin Towers on 9/11. [Krimel] Odd that the value of society and human life always come down to a question of quantity for you. Ok, do the math. In 1940 the population of the planet was about 2 billion people. Today it is about 7 billion. That is 5 billion people alive today and living under much better conditions than ever before. Your litany of death camps, genocides and technological terror total aren't even a drop in that bucket. [Platt] The problem of honest inquiry a.k.a SOM science that I and Pirsig refer to is expressed well in this passage from Lila: "In the time that Phaedrus grew up, intellect was dominant over society, but the results of the new social looseness weren't turning out as predicted. Something was wrong. The world was no doubt in better shape intellectually and technologically but despite that, somehow, the "quality" of it was not good. There was no way you could say why this quality was no good. You just felt it. Sometimes you could see little fragments of reflections of what was wrong but they were just fragments and you couldn't put them together. He remembered seeing The Glass Menagerie, by Tennessee Williams, in which one edge of the stage had an arrow-shaped neon sign flashing on and off, on and off, and beneath the arrow was the word, "PARADISE," also flashing on and off. Paradise, it kept saying, is right where this arrow points: PARADISE "> PARADISE "> PARADISE "> But the Paradise was always somewhere pointed to, always somewhere else. Paradise was never here. Paradise was always at the end of some intellectual, technological ride, but you knew that when you got there paradise wouldn't be there either. You would just see another sign saying: PARADISE C> PARADISE "> PARADISE >" (Lila, 22) [Krimel] I'm with Don Henley on this one: "They call it paradise. I don't know why. You call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye." Paradise is right here right now. If you aren't happy right here right now it seem unlikely to me that you are going to be transformed into a happy person in some other time in some other place. It has nothing to do with technology or the lack of it. [Platt] Much good in the physical sense has come from SOM science and technology, but but it's a brittle good without knowledge or even awareness of an independent moral order. [Krimel] If anything has contributed to the disintegration of moral order it would be capitalism's emphasis on greed and the exploitation of others and the environment. Gordon Gekko is making a comeback. Technology in the evil sense that you see it, becomes evil to the extent that it facilitates this kind of economic manipulation of values. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
