Greetings, I offered the Wilber talks because he in some cases uses the same language that I am struggling to use. I do not agree or disagree with all that he says. In fact, I would disagree with him stating that the awareness of ten-years ago is the same as the awareness of today. I see that only as an assumption, or pattern. In the end, I can find no independent entity to represent a self. I find a flow of static patterns of value.
No more confusing idiocy. Marsha On Jul 30, 2010, at 4:05 PM, MarshaV wrote: > > Wilber on Descartes... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa4WtuR0wbY > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2010, at 3:49 PM, MarshaV wrote: > >> >> Hmmmmm. Interesting... >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ_HsQkBkJA >> >> >> >> On Jul 30, 2010, at 1:40 PM, MarshaV wrote: >> >>> >>> Greetings Ham, >>> >>> Both of your statements "Neither ideas nor "patterns of value" exist >>> without a cognizant agent to realize them." and "YOU are the cognizant >>> agent of your values." are, in fact, also conceptual ideas, or as I would >>> label them: static patterns of value. And your statement "YOU are your >>> SELF."? It is pure concept! >>> >>> You do not go far enough. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 30, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Ham Priday wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Marsha -- >>>> >>>>> You wrote "ALL awareness is proprietary to the self.", and I >>>>> continue to maintain that there is no self. An "independent self" >>>>> is no more than a flow of ever-changing, interdependent, >>>>> inorganic, biological, social, and intellectual static patterns of value. >>>>> On reflection, the awareness I describe has nothing consistent >>>>> or central about it, either. I think it best that I keep it away from >>>>> analysis which will surely distort the experience into an >>>>> independent entity, which is what intellectual analysis is prone to do. >>>> >>>> You avoid analysis for the very reason that the "independent entity" you >>>> thnk is a "distortion" of your experience is in fact your "self". >>>> >>>> I know you're tired of hearing me say this, but "inorganic, biological, >>>> social, and intellectual static patterns of value" is a conceptual idea. >>>> Ideas are thoughts structured by the subjective mind and sometimes >>>> communicated to others by words and symbols. Patterns are relational >>>> configurations recognized intellectually and added to ideas or precepts. >>>> Neither ideas nor "patterns of value" exist without a cognizant agent to >>>> realize them. YOU are the cognizant agent of your values. >>>> >>>> To put it as simply as I can (i.e., no analysis required), YOU are your >>>> SELF. >>>> >>>> May the peace of understanding comfort you, >>>> Ham >>>> >>>> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >>>> >>>>> On Jul 29, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Ham Priday wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Marsha, and welcome Andy -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks to you both for introducing a subject dear to my heart. I only >>>>>> wish Marsha had titled this new thread "the cognitive agent" rather than >>>>>> "cognitive awareness." >>>>>> >>>>>> [Marsha]: >>>>>>> I don't know if you might have a comment, or that I can agree >>>>>>> with such a comment, but I share this interest with you for >>>>>>> what it is worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So many times I have wanted to explore this with you, >>>>>>> but it is difficult. I do not believe it is something RMP >>>>>>> confronts directly, but I can easily relate it to unpatterned >>>>>>> experience and static patterns. Regardless, I am an >>>>>>> introverted explorer and wonder about the flow of >>>>>>> consciousness and awareness. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cognitive awareness comes under the topic of epistemology, a study >>>>>> sorely missing in Pirsig's Quaity thesis. As a consequence, the >>>>>> difference between intellect and awareness is muddled, and thinking, if >>>>>> not awareness itself, is often falsely attributed to some extracorporeal >>>>>> domain. >>>>>> >>>>>>> For me the 'flow of consciousness' comes in two flavors. >>>>>>> There is the creative re-membering of static patterns from the past. >>>>>>> And there is the creative projecting of static patterns into a future. >>>>>>> Unless this seems to be address solving a problem, I dismiss >>>>>>> most as imaginative story. >>>>>> >>>>>> Memory, experience, and intellectual projection are all components of >>>>>> conscious awareness. When used in combination, we call it reasoning or >>>>>> intellection. Simple example: I emptied the milk container at breakfast >>>>>> yesterday (memory); I'm hungry for creamed chipped beef but see no milk >>>>>> in the refrigerator (experience); I shall therefore have to visit the >>>>>> grocery store and purchase more before lunch (reasoning). >>>>>> >>>>>>> There is also an cognitive 'awareness' that is more immediate, >>>>>>> and more puzzling. I suppose it is the techniques of mindfulness >>>>>>> that brings this type of experience to ones attention. >>>>>>> I have read that the Buddhist define these as six consciousnesses >>>>>>> representing the five senses and mind: I am aware of the thought >>>>>>> of a dog. I am aware of seeing a dog. I am aware of hearing >>>>>>> a dog, smelling a dog, feeling a dog, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is another type of awareness that seems to be awareness >>>>>>> without an 'I' and without an object. It is impossible to grasp >>>>>>> because it is lost the moment one tries. This is the awareness I >>>>>>> have called 'unpatterned experience'. This is more like rabbit/duck >>>>>>> graphic experience that Craig cited, but it's unpatterned/patterned. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, there does seem to be a cognitive agent(individual) involved, >>>>>>> but not one I would designate a consistent, central controller. >>>>>> >>>>>> Forget about the "controller"; ALL awareness is proprietary to the self. >>>>>> What you are describing here is immanent sensibility -- awareness >>>>>> captured by cognitive value. A typical example of this is being struck >>>>>> by "love at first sight". You instantly realize the value of the >>>>>> experience or insight without rationalizing the reasons. As Platt has >>>>>> suggested, aesthetic experience -- beauty, magnificence, rapture, etc. >>>>>> -- also falls into this category. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've always been concerned by your denial of a "self", Marsha, and >>>>>> suspect that it comes from reading too much Buddhist philosophy. You >>>>>> are a cognizant creature, which means that you are aware of what you >>>>>> think and feel. Nobody else has Marsha's awareness, thinks for her, or >>>>>> forms her ideas. There's no domain out there that contains Marsha's >>>>>> intellect or moral values. As a cognizant human being your >>>>>> life-experience is absolutely unique. You are the cognizant locus of >>>>>> your reality, This doesn't mean you are not influenced by the thoughts >>>>>> of others, only that what you know and feel as Marsha is yours alone. >>>>>> >>>>>> [Andy]: >>>>>>> Marsha, you mentioned unpatterned experience and cognitive >>>>>>> agents. I think cognition is essentially pattern recognition. >>>>>>> The agent of cognition is concerned with patterns previously\ >>>>>>> recognized and patterns newly recognized. This almost fits with >>>>>>> your "two flavors". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I fail to see how an agent can have unpatterned experience. >>>>>>> "Awareness of" is what you get *after* the Quality event. >>>>>>> How can awareness take place before Quality has created values? >>>>>>> That would permit Quality to be *seen* but that's impossible; >>>>>>> only values can be seen. We know about Quality because we see >>>>>>> everything that it creates; we don't see Quality itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experiences in meditation and psychedelia may have fooled me >>>>>>> into believing that I could do that. I don't believe it anymore. I think >>>>>>> what happened was a temporary inaccessibility of most previously >>>>>>> recognized patterns. As mysterious and wonderful and terrible as it >>>>>>> was, that experience was not unpatterned. It was far less rigidly >>>>>>> patterned than the experience to which I had become accustomed, >>>>>>> so less static and closer to DQ, but not quite there. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree with your epistemology, if not your psychedelia, Andy. However, >>>>>> I view the Self as the "agent", and in deference to Pirsig, I do believe >>>>>> cognitive agents are primarily oriented to non-discrete ("unpatterned"?) >>>>>> Value or what he called "pre-intellectual experience". Epistemologists >>>>>> might say we are "wired to be value-sensible". Value is primary to >>>>>> cognizant awareness. How else can we explain the impact value has on >>>>>> us, let alone the fact that we create values as experienced phenomena? >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, I depart from Pirsig's theory that Quality (Value) is >>>>>> the agent/agency of the cosmos and its guiding "moral principle". I say >>>>>> this for the following reasons. First of all, Value is an attribute of >>>>>> the Primary Source, not an independent "essence" in its own domain. >>>>>> Secondly, it is obvious to me that man is uniquely equipped with the >>>>>> value-sensibility and intellect that enables him to be a "free agent" of >>>>>> value. (Unfortunately, Individual Freedom is not a concept championed by >>>>>> Mr. Pirsig.) Putting all this together, my philosophy holds that man >>>>>> exists to freely realize the value of Essence and exercise his rational, >>>>>> self-directed value in creating a moral world. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Marsha knows, I call this philosophy Essentialism. As a newcomer >>>>>> here, Andy, you are cordially invited to read my online thesis at >>>>>> www.essentialism.net/mechanic.htm. >>>>>> >>>>>> Essentially yours, >>>>>> Ham >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
