To greet and clarify:
That is no more confusing idiocy from me. At least for the moment. Marsha On Jul 31, 2010, at 5:30 AM, MarshaV wrote: > > Greetings, > > I offered the Wilber talks because he in some cases uses the same language > that I am struggling to use. I do not agree or disagree with all that he > says. In > fact, I would disagree with him stating that the awareness of ten-years ago > is > the same as the awareness of today. I see that only as an assumption, or > pattern. > In the end, I can find no independent entity to represent a self. I find a > flow of > static patterns of value. > > No more confusing idiocy. > > > Marsha > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2010, at 4:05 PM, MarshaV wrote: > >> >> Wilber on Descartes... >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa4WtuR0wbY >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 30, 2010, at 3:49 PM, MarshaV wrote: >> >>> >>> Hmmmmm. Interesting... >>> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ_HsQkBkJA >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 30, 2010, at 1:40 PM, MarshaV wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Greetings Ham, >>>> >>>> Both of your statements "Neither ideas nor "patterns of value" exist >>>> without a cognizant agent to realize them." and "YOU are the cognizant >>>> agent of your values." are, in fact, also conceptual ideas, or as I would >>>> label them: static patterns of value. And your statement "YOU are your >>>> SELF."? It is pure concept! >>>> >>>> You do not go far enough. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 30, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Ham Priday wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Marsha -- >>>>> >>>>>> You wrote "ALL awareness is proprietary to the self.", and I >>>>>> continue to maintain that there is no self. An "independent self" >>>>>> is no more than a flow of ever-changing, interdependent, >>>>>> inorganic, biological, social, and intellectual static patterns of value. >>>>>> On reflection, the awareness I describe has nothing consistent >>>>>> or central about it, either. I think it best that I keep it away from >>>>>> analysis which will surely distort the experience into an >>>>>> independent entity, which is what intellectual analysis is prone to do. >>>>> >>>>> You avoid analysis for the very reason that the "independent entity" you >>>>> thnk is a "distortion" of your experience is in fact your "self". >>>>> >>>>> I know you're tired of hearing me say this, but "inorganic, biological, >>>>> social, and intellectual static patterns of value" is a conceptual idea. >>>>> Ideas are thoughts structured by the subjective mind and sometimes >>>>> communicated to others by words and symbols. Patterns are relational >>>>> configurations recognized intellectually and added to ideas or precepts. >>>>> Neither ideas nor "patterns of value" exist without a cognizant agent to >>>>> realize them. YOU are the cognizant agent of your values. >>>>> >>>>> To put it as simply as I can (i.e., no analysis required), YOU are your >>>>> SELF. >>>>> >>>>> May the peace of understanding comfort you, >>>>> Ham >>>>> >>>>> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 29, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Ham Priday wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Marsha, and welcome Andy -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks to you both for introducing a subject dear to my heart. I only >>>>>>> wish Marsha had titled this new thread "the cognitive agent" rather >>>>>>> than "cognitive awareness." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [Marsha]: >>>>>>>> I don't know if you might have a comment, or that I can agree >>>>>>>> with such a comment, but I share this interest with you for >>>>>>>> what it is worth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So many times I have wanted to explore this with you, >>>>>>>> but it is difficult. I do not believe it is something RMP >>>>>>>> confronts directly, but I can easily relate it to unpatterned >>>>>>>> experience and static patterns. Regardless, I am an >>>>>>>> introverted explorer and wonder about the flow of >>>>>>>> consciousness and awareness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cognitive awareness comes under the topic of epistemology, a study >>>>>>> sorely missing in Pirsig's Quaity thesis. As a consequence, the >>>>>>> difference between intellect and awareness is muddled, and thinking, if >>>>>>> not awareness itself, is often falsely attributed to some >>>>>>> extracorporeal domain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For me the 'flow of consciousness' comes in two flavors. >>>>>>>> There is the creative re-membering of static patterns from the past. >>>>>>>> And there is the creative projecting of static patterns into a future. >>>>>>>> Unless this seems to be address solving a problem, I dismiss >>>>>>>> most as imaginative story. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Memory, experience, and intellectual projection are all components of >>>>>>> conscious awareness. When used in combination, we call it reasoning or >>>>>>> intellection. Simple example: I emptied the milk container at >>>>>>> breakfast yesterday (memory); I'm hungry for creamed chipped beef but >>>>>>> see no milk in the refrigerator (experience); I shall therefore have to >>>>>>> visit the grocery store and purchase more before lunch (reasoning). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is also an cognitive 'awareness' that is more immediate, >>>>>>>> and more puzzling. I suppose it is the techniques of mindfulness >>>>>>>> that brings this type of experience to ones attention. >>>>>>>> I have read that the Buddhist define these as six consciousnesses >>>>>>>> representing the five senses and mind: I am aware of the thought >>>>>>>> of a dog. I am aware of seeing a dog. I am aware of hearing >>>>>>>> a dog, smelling a dog, feeling a dog, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is another type of awareness that seems to be awareness >>>>>>>> without an 'I' and without an object. It is impossible to grasp >>>>>>>> because it is lost the moment one tries. This is the awareness I >>>>>>>> have called 'unpatterned experience'. This is more like rabbit/duck >>>>>>>> graphic experience that Craig cited, but it's unpatterned/patterned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, there does seem to be a cognitive agent(individual) involved, >>>>>>>> but not one I would designate a consistent, central controller. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Forget about the "controller"; ALL awareness is proprietary to the >>>>>>> self. What you are describing here is immanent sensibility -- awareness >>>>>>> captured by cognitive value. A typical example of this is being struck >>>>>>> by "love at first sight". You instantly realize the value of the >>>>>>> experience or insight without rationalizing the reasons. As Platt has >>>>>>> suggested, aesthetic experience -- beauty, magnificence, rapture, etc. >>>>>>> -- also falls into this category. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've always been concerned by your denial of a "self", Marsha, and >>>>>>> suspect that it comes from reading too much Buddhist philosophy. You >>>>>>> are a cognizant creature, which means that you are aware of what you >>>>>>> think and feel. Nobody else has Marsha's awareness, thinks for her, or >>>>>>> forms her ideas. There's no domain out there that contains Marsha's >>>>>>> intellect or moral values. As a cognizant human being your >>>>>>> life-experience is absolutely unique. You are the cognizant locus of >>>>>>> your reality, This doesn't mean you are not influenced by the thoughts >>>>>>> of others, only that what you know and feel as Marsha is yours alone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [Andy]: >>>>>>>> Marsha, you mentioned unpatterned experience and cognitive >>>>>>>> agents. I think cognition is essentially pattern recognition. >>>>>>>> The agent of cognition is concerned with patterns previously\ >>>>>>>> recognized and patterns newly recognized. This almost fits with >>>>>>>> your "two flavors". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I fail to see how an agent can have unpatterned experience. >>>>>>>> "Awareness of" is what you get *after* the Quality event. >>>>>>>> How can awareness take place before Quality has created values? >>>>>>>> That would permit Quality to be *seen* but that's impossible; >>>>>>>> only values can be seen. We know about Quality because we see >>>>>>>> everything that it creates; we don't see Quality itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My experiences in meditation and psychedelia may have fooled me >>>>>>>> into believing that I could do that. I don't believe it anymore. I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> what happened was a temporary inaccessibility of most previously >>>>>>>> recognized patterns. As mysterious and wonderful and terrible as it >>>>>>>> was, that experience was not unpatterned. It was far less rigidly >>>>>>>> patterned than the experience to which I had become accustomed, >>>>>>>> so less static and closer to DQ, but not quite there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with your epistemology, if not your psychedelia, Andy. >>>>>>> However, I view the Self as the "agent", and in deference to Pirsig, I >>>>>>> do believe cognitive agents are primarily oriented to non-discrete >>>>>>> ("unpatterned"?) Value or what he called "pre-intellectual experience". >>>>>>> Epistemologists might say we are "wired to be value-sensible". Value >>>>>>> is primary to cognizant awareness. How else can we explain the impact >>>>>>> value has on us, let alone the fact that we create values as >>>>>>> experienced phenomena? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, I depart from Pirsig's theory that Quality (Value) >>>>>>> is the agent/agency of the cosmos and its guiding "moral principle". I >>>>>>> say this for the following reasons. First of all, Value is an >>>>>>> attribute of the Primary Source, not an independent "essence" in its >>>>>>> own domain. Secondly, it is obvious to me that man is uniquely equipped >>>>>>> with the value-sensibility and intellect that enables him to be a "free >>>>>>> agent" of value. (Unfortunately, Individual Freedom is not a concept >>>>>>> championed by Mr. Pirsig.) Putting all this together, my philosophy >>>>>>> holds that man exists to freely realize the value of Essence and >>>>>>> exercise his rational, self-directed value in creating a moral world. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As Marsha knows, I call this philosophy Essentialism. As a newcomer >>>>>>> here, Andy, you are cordially invited to read my online thesis at >>>>>>> www.essentialism.net/mechanic.htm. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Essentially yours, >>>>>>> Ham >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
