[Magnus] You've been trying to push this ... 3 times now, but, well... [Krimel] Third time was charmed. Thanks for your response.
> [Krimel] > 1. Shit Happens. [Magnus] That's right, can't argue with that. [Krimel] One down... > [Krimel] > 2. Quality is Chaos [Magnus] Nope. Quality is reality. [Krimel] True enough but reality is fundamentally chaotic. > [Krimel] > 3. Quality (Chaos) has two aspects DQ (uncertainty) SQ (certainty) [Magnus] Well, from a human perspective, from which you see the world, that's pretty correct. But if you step out into the real world, it's more like being and becoming. [Krimel] I am all about the power of multiple points of view but it really is hard for me to think of a point of view in do not involve maters of certainty vs uncertainty. As I have pointed out several times previously the new field of behavioral economics sees our ability to judge the certainty or uncertainty of things as a sense, a biological property of our species like our ability estimate time and distance. But if I step into "the real world," where would I be? Who would I be but me? Whose point of view would I be taking if not my own? > [Krimel] > 4. Value (meaning) is reduction of uncertainty. > (That is, meaning results from and results in, > our ability to create and manipulate static quality) [Magnus] Meaning is a mapping from an intellectual pattern to another pattern. But since you're in the human perspective, everything you see is transformed into an intellectual pattern and you don't acknowledge the reality of the original experience that created that intellectual pattern. So, to you, value and meaning becomes entangled. But they are really not. [Krimel] I think of Value as valence. It is what attracts or repels us. Uncertainty scares the crap out of us. Quite a few years ago Bill Moyers interviewed the religious historian, Elaine Pagels about her personal response to losing her husband and her son. She said it help her to understand why people turned to prayer. She said the feeling of powerlessness people feel in the face of a world that really is beyond their control was so horrifying that we will cling to any excuse to escape it. That to me, is the power and the horror of uncertainty. I see it as the common thread that connects the function of religions like Buddhism to Christianity As I said I am all about multiple points of view so if you could suggest a better one than the human one I'd be grateful. > [Krimel] > 5. Biological organisms are the meaning (SQ) that evolution > derives from chaos. [Magnus] I didn't know you were religious? No, 5 is just a consequence of 1. [Krimel] I'm not religious but apparently repetitious. If a point is worth making I suppose it's worth making twice. I mean only that biology is the result of the working out of static inorganic relationships. It is the constant negotiation of force and matter colliding in the here and now. Predictable relationships forming into pools of certainty and interacting to creating new orders of uncertainty through their interrelationships, the ebb and flow of emergence. > [Krimel] > 6. As such organisms, we create SQ from the DQ around us or to use > James' terms, we derive concepts from experience [Magnus] We not only derive concepts, we also *experience*. Those experiences are still real, even before we conceptualize them. SQ patterns exist outside our concepts of them. [Krimel] I highly recommend James with regard to this. It's free. It's downloadable. It's readable: http://www.archive.org/details/someproblemsphil00jameuoft I found using the pdf version most effective. Even though it is a scanned copy, at my house it is searchable. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
