On 2010-08-23 12:49, MarshaV wrote:
On Aug 23, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Magnus Berg wrote:
On 2010-08-22 17:34, MarshaV wrote:
Marsha: The fact that static patterns of value are all that is
conceptualized, does not mean that a pattern is a concept.
Magnus: Right, did I say something differently? Wouldn't you want
to say that to Andre really? He was the one who said that
mother-instinct and self-sacrifice was concepts.
Since you neglected to repost what you wrote, hard for me to answer
your first question. As far as Andre's statements, also missing,
mother-instinct and self-sacrifice are patterns conceptualized. I'm
guessing that is what he meant.
Neglected? You were the one starting on a blank sheet.
But sure, let me rephrase that. Have I *ever* suggested anything
differently?
Regarding Andre, I thought you follow the thread in which you
participate? Just search for self-sacrifice, it's not that hard.
And I don't agree they are conceptualized patterns *only*. I think they
are patterns in themselves as well, without us conceptualizing them.
That's the point of this thread.
Marsha: A pattern exists across many individuals and across many
generations of time. To me, they are ever-changing, relative and
impermanent.
Do you see a problem with this?
Magnus: Just that you just said two quite contradictory statements.
First you say they do exist across individuals and generations,
then you say they change. How do you know they are the same
patterns?
I meant that patterns are not individual, bounded, discrete,
independent, entities. To repeat patterns exist across many
individuals and across many generations of of time. Patterns are
ever-changing, relative and impermanent. Ever-changing, relative and
impermanent does not mean without similarity. Experiences can be
very different and still hang together as similar to other
experiences. The repetition and similarity create the pattern, yes?
No, the pattern creates similarity and repetition!
Come on Marsha! Now you're inventing a new metaphysics again. If
repetition and similarity create the pattern, then repetition and
similarity must be more primary stuff of reality than patterns. But they
aren't. The MoQ's first division is DQ/SQ, then SQ is divided into the
levels containing patterns. Do you see repetition or similarity in there?
Magnus
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