How do you know what John really wants Marsha? Boy, for somebody who objects to projecting...
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 5:51 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Go for it, Mary. You can offer John the discussion he really wants. > > > > > > On Sep 1, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Mary wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > You are right that women are the traditional culture-bearers, but > something > > seems wrong or incomplete about saying that we should basically blame the > > victim. Reams of feminist literature has been written to refute the line > of > > argument you've made here, and at the moment I only have a vague > > recollection of any of it, but something about your formulation doesn't > ring > > true. I wonder if we can figure out what it is without quoting Gloria > > Steinem? > > > > Best, > > Mary > > > >> Marsha, > >> > >> I'd like to just sorta start from scratch on a few issues that you > >> brought > >> up, without doing the whole line by line thing. I wanna talk about > >> your > >> charges of the oppression of women through patriarchical organizations > >> of > >> politics and religion, especially religion. And I figure the best > >> place to > >> start is by looking at what I'd call our predessesors, the victorians. > >> It > >> doesn't make as much sense to discuss the fallout of mesopatamian > >> attitudes > >> toward women, they're so far removed their effects have been blunted. > >> The > >> victorians, on the other hand, we feel more immediately present. Not > >> to > >> mention, the Lila connection. > >> > >> Furthermore, I'd say the victorian culture most exemplified the kinds > >> of > >> oppression you describe of masculine denigration of women to mere > >> roles in > >> kitchen and bedroom. Primogeniture and all that. > >> > >> > >> However, I think you are mischaracterizing this as "male" domination - > >> I > >> think, much more you are seeing patterns of feminine domination of > >> society - > >> other women, than you are male patterns. You do know Victoria was a > >> woman, don't you? You blame religion all the time, but you know who > >> the > >> real church goers are? Go sometime. Look around. It's almost all > >> women. > >> And if you looked deeper into the relationships, the men who are there > >> are > >> there because their wives dragged them. They'd much rather be at home > >> watching tv. It's probably always been like that. > >> > >> > >> Do you honestly think men came up with rules about strictly covering > >> female > >> flesh? Hah! Believe me, if men were in charge the rules would be way > >> more > >> lax. Even during the Victorian era. Concerns of fashion > >> appropriateness is > >> women controlling other women's dress. Well, until modern times. I > >> think > >> gay men are in charge now, and I must say it's an improvement! > >> > >> You think it's men who burn witches? It's usually women who gossip > >> about > >> the outcast or gang up with social networks to ostracize the different > >> other. Men just give them the muscle and intellectual justification > >> to get > >> it done. It's this way because it's in women's interest to rein in > >> the > >> purely biological urges in the interest of a social arrangement. The > >> human > >> infant is the longest-developing in infancy of any animal, and it takes > >> teamwork to survive while raising one. Therefore the woman has the > >> most > >> vested interest in social controls, and it's women who shape the > >> society's > >> leanings. > >> > >> Also, women are just more in tune with social cues and facial > >> expressions > >> and communicating from infancy. > >> > >> Until they find a way to raise children in test tubes or whatever, men > >> need > >> women and the acceptance by a woman has always been the driver behind > >> all > >> civilizing progress, all intellectual or athletic competition among > >> males. > >> So what you see as a male dominated society, I see as a female- > >> dominated > >> one. > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
