Go for it, Mary. You can offer John the discussion he really wants.
On Sep 1, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Mary wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> You are right that women are the traditional culture-bearers, but something
> seems wrong or incomplete about saying that we should basically blame the
> victim. Reams of feminist literature has been written to refute the line of
> argument you've made here, and at the moment I only have a vague
> recollection of any of it, but something about your formulation doesn't ring
> true. I wonder if we can figure out what it is without quoting Gloria
> Steinem?
>
> Best,
> Mary
>
>> Marsha,
>>
>> I'd like to just sorta start from scratch on a few issues that you
>> brought
>> up, without doing the whole line by line thing. I wanna talk about
>> your
>> charges of the oppression of women through patriarchical organizations
>> of
>> politics and religion, especially religion. And I figure the best
>> place to
>> start is by looking at what I'd call our predessesors, the victorians.
>> It
>> doesn't make as much sense to discuss the fallout of mesopatamian
>> attitudes
>> toward women, they're so far removed their effects have been blunted.
>> The
>> victorians, on the other hand, we feel more immediately present. Not
>> to
>> mention, the Lila connection.
>>
>> Furthermore, I'd say the victorian culture most exemplified the kinds
>> of
>> oppression you describe of masculine denigration of women to mere
>> roles in
>> kitchen and bedroom. Primogeniture and all that.
>>
>>
>> However, I think you are mischaracterizing this as "male" domination -
>> I
>> think, much more you are seeing patterns of feminine domination of
>> society -
>> other women, than you are male patterns. You do know Victoria was a
>> woman, don't you? You blame religion all the time, but you know who
>> the
>> real church goers are? Go sometime. Look around. It's almost all
>> women.
>> And if you looked deeper into the relationships, the men who are there
>> are
>> there because their wives dragged them. They'd much rather be at home
>> watching tv. It's probably always been like that.
>>
>>
>> Do you honestly think men came up with rules about strictly covering
>> female
>> flesh? Hah! Believe me, if men were in charge the rules would be way
>> more
>> lax. Even during the Victorian era. Concerns of fashion
>> appropriateness is
>> women controlling other women's dress. Well, until modern times. I
>> think
>> gay men are in charge now, and I must say it's an improvement!
>>
>> You think it's men who burn witches? It's usually women who gossip
>> about
>> the outcast or gang up with social networks to ostracize the different
>> other. Men just give them the muscle and intellectual justification
>> to get
>> it done. It's this way because it's in women's interest to rein in
>> the
>> purely biological urges in the interest of a social arrangement. The
>> human
>> infant is the longest-developing in infancy of any animal, and it takes
>> teamwork to survive while raising one. Therefore the woman has the
>> most
>> vested interest in social controls, and it's women who shape the
>> society's
>> leanings.
>>
>> Also, women are just more in tune with social cues and facial
>> expressions
>> and communicating from infancy.
>>
>> Until they find a way to raise children in test tubes or whatever, men
>> need
>> women and the acceptance by a woman has always been the driver behind
>> all
>> civilizing progress, all intellectual or athletic competition among
>> males.
>> So what you see as a male dominated society, I see as a female-
>> dominated
>> one.
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