John, We could go point by point forever, and never come to a satisfactory resolution for the both of us, or we could wait for Horse to say "Enough!". Why go to the trouble? Play with Mary if you want to show me how it's done according to your idealized notion of the thing. I'm happy to be out of it. I just couldn't bear someone with no clitoris, womb, mammary glands or experience of being socialized female expounding on what it is to be a woman, or a mother, let alone define what it means to be a "good mother". But if you insist, go for it. Become a fountain of meaningless patterns; I have four more dvds of Twin Peaks (Season Two) to watch.
Love ya, John. Marsha On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:41 AM, John Carl wrote: > It ain't the fathers doing the binding Marsha. Its mothers who had their > feet bound themselves. > > Which makes my point about as well as anything I can think of. > > John > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 1:44 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> John, >> >> I've even heard women defend men with this kind of justification, >> but it is a masculine point-of-view. It's a good story and there is a >> ring of truth to your rationality, but it is not very deep. I can only >> ask you to consider what happens to a foot that is bound from >> infancy? I've seen photos. It is very distorted. The only thing I >> know to do at the moment, is to try to step outside of it. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 31, 2010, at 11:49 PM, John Carl wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> >>> I'd like to just sorta start from scratch on a few issues that you >> brought >>> up, without doing the whole line by line thing. I wanna talk about your >>> charges of the oppression of women through patriarchical organizations of >>> politics and religion, especially religion. And I figure the best place >> to >>> start is by looking at what I'd call our predessesors, the victorians. >> It >>> doesn't make as much sense to discuss the fallout of mesopatamian >> attitudes >>> toward women, they're so far removed their effects have been blunted. >> The >>> victorians, on the other hand, we feel more immediately present. Not >> to >>> mention, the Lila connection. >>> >>> Furthermore, I'd say the victorian culture most exemplified the kinds of >>> oppression you describe of masculine denigration of women to mere roles >> in >>> kitchen and bedroom. Primogeniture and all that. >>> >>> >>> However, I think you are mischaracterizing this as "male" domination - I >>> think, much more you are seeing patterns of feminine domination of >> society - >>> other women, than you are male patterns. You do know Victoria was a >>> woman, don't you? You blame religion all the time, but you know who the >>> real church goers are? Go sometime. Look around. It's almost all >> women. >>> And if you looked deeper into the relationships, the men who are there >> are >>> there because their wives dragged them. They'd much rather be at home >>> watching tv. It's probably always been like that. >>> >>> >>> Do you honestly think men came up with rules about strictly covering >> female >>> flesh? Hah! Believe me, if men were in charge the rules would be way >> more >>> lax. Even during the Victorian era. Concerns of fashion appropriateness >> is >>> women controlling other women's dress. Well, until modern times. I >> think >>> gay men are in charge now, and I must say it's an improvement! >>> >>> You think it's men who burn witches? It's usually women who gossip about >>> the outcast or gang up with social networks to ostracize the different >>> other. Men just give them the muscle and intellectual justification to >> get >>> it done. It's this way because it's in women's interest to rein in >> the >>> purely biological urges in the interest of a social arrangement. The >> human >>> infant is the longest-developing in infancy of any animal, and it takes >>> teamwork to survive while raising one. Therefore the woman has the most >>> vested interest in social controls, and it's women who shape the >> society's >>> leanings. >>> >>> Also, women are just more in tune with social cues and facial expressions >>> and communicating from infancy. >>> >>> Until they find a way to raise children in test tubes or whatever, men >> need >>> women and the acceptance by a woman has always been the driver behind all >>> civilizing progress, all intellectual or athletic competition among >> males. >>> So what you see as a male dominated society, I see as a female-dominated >>> one. >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
