Arlo
On 2010-09-17 20:50, ARLO J BENSINGER JR wrote:
[Magnus]
Take the same person, which is supposedly dependent on the society in which it
lives, and remove it from that society. Will the intellectual patterns vanish?
Not a chance! That is *not* dependency.
[Arlo]
There is a lot of evidence to support the contrary. Effects of the sort of
extreme isolation you mention have been shown to have massive degenerative
effects on human cognition, even after only a very short time. Psychological
breakdowns often begin with hallucinations and lead rapidly to severe
schizophrenic behavior. There is a reason why forced isolation is considered a
form of torture. While the long term effects of this sort of extreme isolation
can only be extrapolated from the rare case study involved a re-socialization
of someone desocialized for long amounts of time, it is clear the loss of
identity, animalistic behavior and a complete loss of higher forms of cognition
are fairly certain in these cases.
Didn't you read my complete post? I compared that dependency which you
defend, with other, much more direct dependencies. If this was a direct
dependency, then the person would lose all capabilities to think and
forget all memories at the exact moment it was removed from society.
It's a pretty easy experiment and the answer is no, no, no.
The long term, or even short term effects is not what I call dependency,
but much closer to the other word I mentioned in my last post, catalyst.
(only in your example above it's rather the opposite
Also, your initial example is flawed. A socialized human can, of course,
survive as a social being without continued direct human interaction, but its
more accurate for your analogy to ask, if a human infant (hypothetically, let's
say immediately after birth) were sent "to the moon" and survived in absolute
isolation from any social world until he say he was twenty, the question is
would he be "intellectual" in any way. From the studies involving feral
children, to the self-reporting of Helen Keller, the answer appears to be a
flat out no. This is supported by the MOQ's theory that intellect emerges out
of society and NOT biology.
I'm sorry but you're simply stuck in old ways of thinking. It's *not*
more accurate to my analogy. My thought experiments with the different
levels started with a functional object built of different dependent
patterns. Then I removed lower level patterns and could see that all
higher level patterns vanished *immediately*! Your description is
something completely different, not analogous at all. So all these
studies of tragic cases simply doesn't apply.
Magnus
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