Hi John, John said: I wonder if you could tell me the cash value of pre-conceptual experience?
Matt: If you've been reading my replies to Dave, you'll see that I don't advise buying a lot of stock in that particular concept, so it is difficult for me to say what the cash value is because it is lower for me than others, which means when I try to explain why others find more value in it, it usually comes out in such invidious-sounding terms as Nietzsche's "metaphysical comfort." But whatever it is, no, it's not usually faith. As I see it, the attempt to recoup "pre-conceptual experience" rests on 1) a philosophy of language that rests on Kant and 2) a love of silence. The former, I've been led to think by Rorty, Davidson and Robert Brandom, won't work. It's a bad philosophy of language. The latter, on the other hand, is just a reference to sitting and watching sunsets, enjoying walks in the wilderness, etc. There's no inherent problem with this at all, though it too has a contentious rhetorical tradition that we are becoming more and more conscious of in, for example, literary studies with current interest in ecology. Ecology has a rhetoric, and an occasionally nasty one that the great American progressive historian Frederick Jackson Turner first, ahem, pioneered in The Frontier in American History. (And if you wonder why I say "nasty," ask an American Indian what "manifest destiny" is.) John said: It seems to me, that if something is pre-conceptual, then we can't concieve it, think about it, talk about it, poeticize it or contemplate it in any way. Pragmatically speaking, it doesn't even exist. Matt: That's kind of right. What one wants to say, on the other hand, is that you can still _experience_ it (which is oddly against Kant). If you have no concepts, no language, you can still stub your toe. The empiricist in people cries out for us to acknowledge the existence of the non-conceptual--stuff that isn't an idea. We might only be able to do this by pointing with an idea, but how is this any different than the old mystic trope of pointing at the moon. The big deal, as I see it however, is all in the prefix: how do we choose between "pre-" and "non-"? I have no problems with "non-", but I struggle to see what benefit we get in distinguishing between "non-" and "pre-", and stressing the importance of "pre-". For a kind of dialectical tour around the notion of Dynamic Quality and this issue, one that arose if I remember correctly in dialogue with Marsha (and so might be convenient in response to her catcall), you might check out this post: http://pirsigaffliction.blogspot.com/2006/04/dynamic-quality-as-pre-intellectual.html For Marsha encapsulates quite well the purity-response I don't understand and the reality-response I think unavailable to pragmatists and Pirsigians (and I would think self-described relativists, too). In answer to your question above, she said, "Why don't you find out for yourself? Being a skeptic, I think that might be the only way you might appreciate its value, especially when words are so much less than the experience and you are prone to needing proof." The rhetorical question is an echo of Bo Skutvik's much acclaimed and applauded response to Struan Hellier in Lila's Child: go find out more about reality. It has been applauded over the years because of the sense most have of what DQ is, but I think that response should be unavailable to a properly Pirsigian believer in the relativity of static patterns. And the sentiment that "words are so much less than the experience" exemplifies the grading we find in purity-responses (in this case, more a plenitude-response). My reaction now is still the same as in the post on my site: the sense that words "lose something" when describing an experience is a function of the difficulty of articulation, of expressing. If you have a high level of articulation or a low threshold for success, you might think nothing is lost between your experience and your words about the experience. But that relativity in levels on those two different valences obscures completely our ability to be able to tell if something, _in reality_, is lost or not. If all we have is experience, and _not_ an invidious distinction between reality and experience, then it's tough to attain the authority to tell someone that they may _think_ they've captured their experience perfectly, but they are _actually_ wrong. You might convince them otherwise, but that takes words. Matt Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
