Hi Ron/Dan. Ron: Human rights, trial by jury, self government.....just off the top of my head are examples given by Bob Pirsig if I'm not mistaken... sanitation.. agriculture, science and medicine...all contributed to increased quality of life and population explosions to name some biological benefits.
---------------------------------------------- Yes , Ron, but these are not patterns of Nature.They are patterns of the intellectual level,Morality-induced modifications, of course free will is involved in modifications, Morality, science...etc. But Dan is very correct with this approach,.. quote , Dan. Dan: Natural selection pertains to the biological level. There is no choice involved. The fittest survive to pass on those survival traits while the less fit hit an evolutionary dead end. At the biological level, the environment seems to determine the fittest. For example, global warming is threatening many species not able to adapt. No choice is involved.(very correct.) The next however contains a little mistake with dramatic consequences if used to start building a reasening on. In Neo-Darwinism and in Darwinism,the laws of Mendel, ... The difference is being made in the fields of evolutionary patterns. There are a number of patterns, observables,mechanisms of Nature that are impossible to change. One needs to understand them, and the differences, to see the implications. 1) Mutation 2) Change 3) Modification They differ totally, allow me to provide some examples. Simple , change.- Take a normal plant, say a sunflower, and plant it on top of a mountain(lean air) It will grow in a different manner than his brother in the normal fields. It will grow higher(more sun) and show patterns of dwarfism at the same time,(flower), so this we call here in French "etoileren"growing towards the light too fast, shaping only dwarfflowers,and probably snap due to the inability to resist the winds standing on the summit , alone , not shielded by its brothers. These are all only changes, plant one of the seeds again on sealevel, amidst a normal setting,It will grow out to a normal sunflower again. Think of a bonsai, get it out of his pot,plant it outside,and there you have it... The lesson is simple, change does not show the patterns of possible inheritance- capabilities therefore change is merely change. Bit more difficult to explain,Modification. Let us take a fish in sweetwater to think about, say a guppy, very good example. Normally it lives in sweetwater,however it is possible if done slowly and with prudence,to make it adopt to seawater,slowly! dripping in seawater in the fishtank with a tiny tube, only some drops/hour,say 1 week, and there you have it,we can drop the fish in the full seawatertank.I will happily live on. The process is reversible btw. We did nothing to change the fish, nor did his nature with him, the pattern will not show inheritance-capabilities. Drop him next time to fast into the seawater-- stonedead, there will be no impression on the DNA. This was only a modification, not a change. Mutation 3 forms mainly. difficult this one. I will speak of 2 forms. Lossless mutation (not so important) Mutation with a loss (important) Mutation with a gain.a profit,a new property. (very important) With a loss. A normal black moth in an industrial environment, suddenly generates a mutation. (modification in the Dna) and produces a white moth in his offspring, only one among thousands of black juveniles. It is a mutation because of the imprint of the dna,(inheritance)and its a mutation with a loss because of its loosing of the ability to form the color 'Black'. Whether it will survive in nature and become a new variant of the species. depends on its ability to live among the predators(white moths are easyer to target than Black moths in an industrial environment) and the fact of its possible fertilityloss.(mutants mostly loose their fertility), but not always. Okay, some shortcutting now,i'm short of time again. Mutations with a gain, a new property. A mutation occurs in a rose, its offspring shows a new color among the juveniles. The youngster is more fast growing,the leaves are greener, and the fertility boosted up further than his parents are capable of. Because of the color is new(did not exist before) its a mutation with a gain a new property,plant it outside and if all things are left over to nature,it will outrun his parents(better fertility) , now add statistical probability to the set, and there you have it, concluding evidence for the fact that the parent will die out over time. It will make place for its new species. Voila, a new species is born. An old species will dissapear forever in time, it will diffuse away. Can we learn something of this all, towards possible developments of the Moq? Well think of Pirsigs statement, that the moq is responding to patterns of evolution, and capable of responding to patterns evoluting in themselves.. Only if these patterns are showing the capability of inheritance, theu will make the moq evolve within itself, and to evolve in his totality. All other additions are merely only changes and modifications.(our waffling until now) So to come back on the embedded question Dan, quote. Dan: Even social patterns seem bound by determinism and not free will. Take the act of circumcising males. Jewish men have been circumcised for centuries but they are still born with foreskins. If evolution was a matter of free will, wouldn't Jewish males be born sans foreskin by now? --------------------------------- Foreskin cutting, mechanical, change , modification, will never become a mutation. evolution as an act of free will is an illusion. and correct as Pirsigs shows, in the philosophical field free will and choice are only macroscopical events,Nature and morality/reality,will take the lead. Sorry have to go now. 2011/3/23 Jan-Anders <[email protected]> > At the biological level free will is expressed by mutations and very slow > action compared to human intelligence. > > J-A > > [email protected] wrote 2011-03-23 15.41: > >> Hello Dan >> >> > >>> > Ron: >>> > "free will" is natural selection. Is'nt it?. >>> >> Dan: >> Natural selection pertains to the biological level. There is no choice >> involved. The fittest survive to pass on those survival traits while >> the less fit hit an evolutionary dead end. At the biological level, >> the environment seems to determine the fittest. For example, global >> warming is threatening many species not able to adapt. No choice is >> involved. >> >> Ron: >> First off, thank you for the discussion Dan. >> I must begin by placing my comment within the context of Pirsigs >> theory of evolution, the idea that Quality operates on discreet levels. >> This gives us as adherents to this theory pause to reconsider the >> implications >> of the idea of what is meant by "natural selection". >> Choice, or Quality, is indeed involved only on the biological level as you >> state. >> The bedrock of RMP's assertion in this matter is indeed that "free will" >> is >> Quality >> it is what he meant when he stated that atoms may be viewed as prefering >> their >> bonds >> that "free will" is exercised on the inorganic level as well. The >> consistancy of >> this statement >> follows that "natural selection" and "free will"?is indeed Quality but >> witin >> differing contexts. >> >> >> Dan: >> Even social patterns seem bound by determinism and not free will. Take >> the act of circumcising males. Jewish men have been circumcised for >> centuries but they are still born with foreskins. If evolution was a >> matter of free will, wouldn't Jewish males be born sans foreskin by >> now? >> >> Ron: >> I think that Pirsigs explanation of the four levels of Quality adequitly >> describes this >> Phenomena by asserting that the comparison drawn above refers to two >> different >> levels or types of evolution. Cutting off the foreskin is a social level >> value, >> an intellectual >> alteration of the biological form not an intellectual or social selection >> based >> on biologicaly >> inherited traits. >> >> Dan: >> Intellectual patterns may exhibit evolutionary free will though to be >> honest I am hard pressed to think of any examples. Can you? >> >> Ron: >> Human rights, trial by jury, self government.....just off the top of my >> head >> are examples given by Bob Pirsig if I'm not mistaken... sanitation.. >> agriculture, science and medicine...all contributed to increased quality >> of life and population explosions to name some biological benefits. >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > -- parser Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
