The Essential Ham: I don't know how this translates in MoQ terms, or whether a cognizant self made of quality patterns can even be considered "autonomous". I could care less whether "Pirsig says" or "Dan says" something different. I do know, however, that unless man is an independent creature, capable of realizing value for himself and free to act in accordance with his choices, human life has no purpose or meaning other than to complete the evolutionary process of an insentient universe.
Andre: I expected something like this from you Ham, so I'll respond at the very basic level i.e. the inorganic and organic level: do you have a choice of feeling hungry or not? Do you have a choice about satisfying that hunger or not?......... Get real man!! You say 'Unless man is an independent creature...'. Are you going satisfy these needs, at this level... independently...as you suggest? Do you have a choice about this? What essential reality are you proposing? Why, do you think we DO satisfy our hunger needs? Why did we invent purposes and meaning? Why can DQ/sq be seen as an evolutionary process BECAUSE it is a sentient universe? Ham: In order for man to be a free agent, he is created as a 'being-aware', an individuated entity that stands apart from the Creator or Source. Andre: I have asked you before Ham, and have never got an answer: Why are you here? What VALUE is there for you being here? You are SOM to the core and this mode of reasoning , this application of logic is something Pirsig's MOQ has left behind. You are outmoded and outdated Ham! To equate being aware with freedom (your 'free agent') is a silly equation. To suggest that the individual stands apart from the 'Creator' or 'Source' is a contradiction in terms. Do you not realise this? This is the same as saying that there is a difference between what 'we' know and 'is' known. I.e. that the known and that what s/he knows are two completely different things...never to be reconciled. It is this same American (sorry guys...okay Western) idea of upholding freedom that is illusory. WE are not free from a Quality point of view. We equate freedom with choice. Oh, wonderful! But it is STATIC choices we are referring to when we decide to buy this or that bread, or drink this or that malt whiskey. Or go here or there on this particular holiday. These are simply empirical verifications that some things are better than others and that at one point I feel like having or doing this and at another point if feel like doing something else. This you equate with 'freedom'? This is the stuff the Giant uses to lull us to sleep, to lull us into thinking that we are so free...that Dynamic Quality is to be found on the Jungle Queen! Paradise=>Paradise=>Paradise. Keep on sleeping Ham... in a very purposeless and insentient universe. You, my friend are the insentient! Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
