Ron to Andre: But I still fail to see how Dans point of how static patterns having no choice, and no freedom as it directly applies to the traditional philosophical problem of freewill vs. determinism, that MoQ renders moot,forms the general elementary framework of how static patterns of quality are understood within THE MoQ.
If you can provide some insight I'd be appreciative. Andre: Hi Ron, I'll do my best but must first say that I also, as Dan, don't quite understand why you do not grasp the MOQ perspective on this issue of freewill vs determinism. Let's start slowly: you say you fail to see how following static patterns means 'having no choice' in the context of f vs d in the MOQ renders it 'moot'... . Are you with me thus far? Following static patterns simply means following what has gone thus far. There are a zillion static patterns to follow and ...YES...you have a choice about those...following whichever ones you would like. Our culture freely offers these opportunities as wonderful expressions of... . But is this an expression of freewill? Is this an expression of freedom? I think that, within the context of the MOQ Pirsig renders these choices, as expressing freedom or freewill to be rather empty...meaningless. He debunks the SOM inspired freedom to be meaningless... empty. The choices you make, and the reasoning by which and through which you make these choices, in other words; the givens and the relations between those gives are already static. As soon as a choice is made, the choice is not dynamic but static. It is a static choice. I would say that most of our lives are spent making static choices. Go to the supermarket, walk the street, plan a vacation you have not undertaken before, apply for a job... and invariably the thing comes down to evoking prior,well established patterns to follow. Of course you have a choice about which (well established patterns) you choose (and my point to Ham was that this is, in the Western world understood as free choice and freewill). But Pirsig gets away from this. He suggests that this is NOT freewill nor free choice in the true sense in which the MOQ means it. The MOQ is not a social value based apology for this type of stuff. The MOQ is a mystical philosophy. It wants to move us away from this intellectual stuff. What it says is, if you want true freedom, true free choice, kill all intellectual patterns whilst sustaining ( which in the Dutch translation of LILA is a little different as it implies a 'putting up with' a 'suffering') biological and social patterns). All clinging to intellectual stuff impedes the realization of 'true' knowledge, unitive knowledge, DQ and I suggest that any allusion to 'freewill, 'freedom' are fetters and attempts of the ego, of selfishness, to assert itself over and over again. Pirsig, and Dan have been repeating this again and again: To the extent that one's behaviour is controlled by static patterns of quality it is without choice'. Choice as an expression of freedom i.e Dynamic choice. No...it is static choice... i.e. based on static patterns (and relations) of value). It feeds the Giant, your ego and the illusion. But to the extent that one follows Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, one's behaviour is free'. (LILA, p 160) Pirsig in the AHP tapes:'... the act of an artist,say a non- representational artist...he has an easel in front of him, he has paint in front of him, he has a brush, he puts it in and he is staring at the blank canvas...where does he put it? How is he going to know? Are there any rules? There are no rules! He is going to operate on, if he is a real artist, he's going to operate on pure Value. He'd say: 'There' ... and it will be a non mediated, non intellectual process. This is critical: non-mediated, non-intellectual...this is following DQ. This is following freedom and if you want to follow this course... your 'freewill' and (static) 'freedom' will be determined by Quality. I do hope I have been able to clarify some things which I believe the MOQ perspective is. Of course I may be wrong and will welcome your and Dan's comments. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
