Wow, thanks for that Matt. I guess I'm always sensitive to "we", "they", "you" messages directed generally, but received as an individual. Although I hadn't spotted the specific subtlety of the dmb / Steve / Matt exchange that triggered the "lecture" at the particular point in time, you do know I completely agreed with the sentiment - have tried (and failed, as you say) to get the same message through.
You say "... There has got to be a better way of allowing _each other_ to better express the viewpoints we each individually have. [...] Sometimes I get tired of people not being able to talk to each other. " Absolutely, tell me about it. And as you say the problem is about the relationships, not the points themselves. If we don't largely "love" (show respect, compassion, empathy for) each other, any amount of "criticism" - rhetorical or logical (or poetical?) - is worthless (low quality). Regards Ian On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 1:45 AM, Matt Kundert <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ian said: > Hi Matt, not sure why you needed to give us that "lecture" on > interpreting words and their intent in context - ie that doesn't seem > contentious ? It didn't seem particularly related to Steve's point ? > > Matt: > Well, it was related to Steve's meta-point about the relationship we > have to Pirsig. I felt like giving a "lecture" on reading because I think > if we--all of us--thought more about these meta- things while we > were relating to each other about Pirsig and philosophy in general, > then perhaps we might change the form, and possibly the content, of > what we say. Given the state of the MD (as I felt it) at the point at > which I sent the post (recently), I felt like this was the thing to say. > I.e. it seemed like, while not being contentious, we might be > occasionally violating its strictures. > > For example, why didn't Dave say all of those neutral things about > compassion and empathy in his expansion of the MoQ to Steve, and > not me? One answer might be because of how he perceives Steve > as an interlocutor, and on the other hand how he perceives me. The > same can be said about Steve. And the point I want to make is that > there has got to be a better way of allowing _each other_ to better > express the viewpoints we each individually have. Because we _all_ > have Pirsig's Ch. 26 blessing to avoid the cart of philosophology. But > how do we relate to each other's carts? > > We, each of us, bring out of each other different sides of each other. > Sometimes I get tired of people not being able to talk to each other. > When that happens, the thing to do--it seems to me--is to start at the > beginning, with principles of interpretation, the rules of the game of > rationality. You say what I said isn't "contentious," but when I started > posting interpretations of Pirsig that were contentious in content, one > of the things I was slammed for was my method, my interpretive > principles. The reason to reiterate these, whatever they are, isn't to > bash each other again with one more weapon, but to try to start the > conversation over. That's what I've realized in my old age. > > I've been here too long to think that the battles might never pause, > and take time to reflect on themselves. That is generally how > interactions occur, but I'm too old now to think that we > can't--if we wished--wipe our own memories, forgive the heat of the > battle, and try and repair our distances and talk sanely and relevantly > to each other. > > Why did I say it? How 'bout this Ian: because you weren't. Because > you're slogan tagged to each email wasn't, apparently, working. > Because I felt like saying the thing we all ostensibly agree to explicitly > in the idea that we might see some of our own recent actions cutting > against its grain. > > Matt > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
