Hi Matt, not sure why you needed to give us that "lecture" on interpreting words and their intent in context - ie that doesn't seem contentious ? It didn't seem particularly related to Steve's point ?
The specific points on care and love. I hear him talking about "care" all over the place in ZMM. And yes, his choice of value (and quality) avoided the cheapened word "lurv" post hippiedom. His intent was pretty clear, to create blue water. On Steve's point that you kicked-off from ... Pirsig describes most things from his "centre-of-gravity" of perception (interaction) rather than an objectified me and my will. Plenty of other philosophers who see freedom in relation to will also come round to the more illusory perceptions of will. Regards Ian On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 2:06 AM, Matt Kundert <[email protected]> wrote: > > Steve said: > Pirsig has described freedom as a matter of perception while every > other philosopher that I have ever read has described it as a matter > of will. You don't see that as interesting? That's not worth thinking > about? > > Matt: > I've been accused of distorting "what Pirsig says" off and on for about > a decade, and as I have perhaps a more liberal sense of what it > means to legitimately appropriate a thinker, or extend their thinking, > I thought I might comment that everyone might pause and consider > their own sense of what is a legitimate mode of "translating" from > "what Pirsig says" to "what Pirsig really means." > > If we try too hard to make sure we agree with Pirsig, that's no good > for either us or Pirsig. Precision of formulation _has_ to be an > important consideration in philosophy, because if it wasn't, we could > just first assume that everyone agrees with us, and then pick out > where it seems "close enough," or just willfully pound them into the > shape we want. > > Sometimes we do that. Sometimes that's okay. Sometimes we just > use and abuse. But part of the mission of the MD seems to be a > self-conscious awareness of what Pirsig's intentions were, whether > or not they produced something you think is good or not. It's okay > to think Pirsig misstepped his own formulation of the heart of his > philosophy. What we need (and what, e.g., Bo Skutvik apparently > never had) is an awareness of when Pirsig ends and you begin. > One way to formulate this is to say a particular phrasing that Pirsig > used isn't important to the point he was trying to make. The center > of gravity for the heart of his philosophy is somewhere else. I think > that's legitimate, but it has to be in the light of what taking seriously > that formulation _would mean_ to the rest of his philosophy: it > would mean patiently taking the time to explore the consequences > of the actual words he uses. > > For example, I think the heart of Pirsig's philosophy might be more > massively augmented by taking the "care passages" of ZMM more > seriously, in the direction that Steve has marked out as the liberal > viewpoint of extending circles of concern, and for which he is > currently concerned that Pirsig may not approach enough. I am > less concerned, and think Pirsig would fair well in an extrapolation. > But the one thing I would not be is as blithe as John is in asserting > that Pirsig is all about love and empathy. Steve seems to be right > when he suggests that we should think through the fact that "care" > is left behind somewhat, and "love" doesn't seem to come up at all. > It's not exactly that John is wrong, but he seems to be lacking in > that self-consciousness. And it could easily be repaired by simply > taking those apparent facts into account, something along the lines > of, "That's true, he doesn't talk about care or love a lot. But if we > move the center of gravity of our understanding of Quality to 'care,' > then there's a sense in which Pirsig is suggesting that evaluative > behavior--the only behavior that exists--is in fact equated, the same > as, a fluctuating circle of concern. I.e., low quality is the same as > judging that you _don't_ care about something. And, additionally, > the reason why Pirsig avoided extensive reflection on care, and > particularly about love, might be a reaction-formation to the hippies. > Even as Pirsig wrote, he sensed something a little off about the > hippie movement, something to beware rhetorically of, and by the > 90s it became obvious that if he wanted to bridge-build at the > cultural level between conservatives and liberals, it would be with the > word 'value' (which conservatives seem to have co-opted and think > liberals had abdicated) and not 'love,' which conservatives still were > reacting to in the hippie context. To formulate philosophical > propositions with 'love' at the center would move too close to the > 'soup of sentiments' that he wanted to avoid." Taking things into > account explicitly, being self-conscious, seems to be central to > philosophical articulation. > > I don't think Pirsig, the rhetorician, did not choose his words carefully > most of the time. Taking seriously his own formulations will tell you > where he is revolutionary and not. Taking seriously Pirsig's verbiage > is how you pay homage to his thought, particularly if you want to say > something slightly different. Thinking things through, patiently and > carefully, isn't the antithesis of Dynamic Quality. > > And sometimes we should relinquish the thought that we don't have > anything new to learn about Pirsig. Sometimes we might treat the > MD like a laboratory for testing hypotheses, testing an idea for its > consequences, even if we aren't sold on the idea yet. You don't yell > at a scientist if he tests a new liquid in a beaker and it blows up. If > we had more of what Emerson called a "youth of mind," and > approached each other in that spirit more often, I think we'd learn a > lot more about Pirsig and ourselves. > > Matt > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
