On Sep 1, 2011, at 8:01 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
> Marsha,
> That's true of all of us and all we say and we all know it.
Is it? To quote again:
According to the _Buddha-dharma_... all the pain we bring to ourselves
and others
--- the hatred, the warring, the grovelling, the manipulation --- is our
own doing. It
comes from our own hearts and minds, out of our own confusion.
Furthermore, if we
don't see exactly what the problem is, we're going to perpetuate it.
We're going to
teach our children our confusion, and we'll go on, generation after
generation, doing
more of the same to ourselves and to each other. (Hagen, 1997, p.16)
>
> It takes a conscious rhetorical choice to choose to say it in words in
> a communication.
I do not understand the point you are trying to make here? Saying what?
Marsha
>
> Ian
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:57 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Ian,
>>
>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 7:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>
>>> You can see Marsha I'm sure, that slipping in ...
>>> "but then it is ONLY [dmb's] opinion"
>>> ... is your part of perpetuating the warring you refer to?
>>
>>
>> I don't see it that way because it is _only my opinion_. I do not
>> hold the Ultimate truth.
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>>
>>> With respect to the Ant quotations, there is an element of exposing -
>>> on the one hand / on the other hand - counter arguments in a thesis /
>>> dissertation, so we might not read strong agreement by Ant into his
>>> statement of the view of Pirsig's deficiencies ? (Ant can speak for
>>> himself on that. Matt has already pointed out tactical rhetorical
>>> reasons why Pirsig might not have wanted to emphasise that aspect in
>>> his writing at the time.)
>>>
>>> dmb's view there was interesting - I happen to believe there was
>>> something of a straw-man in this passage
>>> "Various posters have come through here, usually religious types, who
>>> insist that their philosophical positions shouldn't be judged on their
>>> intellectual merits, as if it's cruel to hold them to such standards,
>>> as if their position deserves respect simply because that position is
>>> held by a person and people deserve respect. This silly, self-centered
>>> attitude says, in effect, that being critical of another's position is
>>> more or less the same as being a dick."
>>> But it is interesting that dmb states HIS attitude clearly.
>>>
>>> (Straw-man - because it really just side-steps a debate of what is
>>> "intellectual merit" - no-one would claim to be unreasonable, not even
>>> the overtly religious types. It's an open debate as to who's style of
>>> debate is the more mature and constructive - Matt's point - and mine.)
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 11:42 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> From Anthony's Ph.D. thesis:
>>>>
>>>> "On the other hand, Pirsig's system remains a 'broad brush' as two (or
>>>> more) judgements concerned with a particular moral dilemma can rely on
>>>> criteria derived from the same evolutionary level. Moreover, there _is_
>>>> considerable detail that Pirsig has overlooked from both Eastern and
>>>> Western philosophical traditions, through this can be provided, to some
>>>> extent, by researching the philosophers (such as Northrop, Nagarjuna and
>>>> William James) who influenced his work. No doubt, in-depth comparisons
>>>> between Pirsig and these philosophers would be beneficial in further
>>>> clarifying the MoQ. Other issues overlooked by Pirsig are the Taoist
>>>> quietist concern with the environment; discrimination on the grounds of
>>>> race, gender culture and disability; the damage caused by global
>>>> capitalism and the Buddhis emphasis on compassion.
>>>>
>>>> "Pirsig's failure to explicitly mention Buddhist compassion (karuna) in
>>>> ZMM or LILA is possibly his most serious oversight. Compassion is defined
>>>> by Rahula (1959, p.46) as representing universal... 'love, charity,
>>>> kindness, tolerance, and such noble qualities on the emotional side'
>>>> qualified by the following advice:
>>>>
>>>> If one develops only the emotional neglecting the intellectual, one
>>>> may become a
>>>> good-hearted fool; while to develop only the intellectual side
>>>> neglecting the
>>>> emotional may turn one into a hard-hearted intellect without
>>>> feeling for others.
>>>> Therefore, to be perfect one has to develop both equally. That is
>>>> the aim of the
>>>> Buddhist way of life: in it wisdom and compassion are inseparably
>>>> linked together.
>>>> (Rahula, 1959, p.46)
>>>>
>>>> "As numerous world problems are caused or aggravated due to lack of
>>>> genuine compassion, it appears highly plausible that an increased
>>>> consideration of the later would enhance the MoQ.
>>>>
>>>> According to the _Buddha-dharma_... all the pain we bring to
>>>> ourselves and others
>>>> --- the hatred, the warring, the grovelling, the manipulation ---
>>>> is our own doing. It
>>>> comes from our own hearts and minds, out of our own confusion.
>>>> Furthermore, if we
>>>> don't see exactly what the problem is, we're going to perpetuate
>>>> it. We're going to
>>>> teach our children our confusion, and we'll go on, generation after
>>>> generation, doing
>>>> more of the same to ourselves and to each other. (Hagen, 1997, p.16)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (McWatt, Anthony, 'A Critical Analysis of Robert Pirsig's Metaphysics
>>>> of Quality', pp. 214-215)
>>>>
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> I agree with Anthony when he states "Pirsig's failure to explicitly
>>>> mention Buddhist compassion (karuna) in ZMM or LILA is possibly his most
>>>> serious oversight."; and so think it is a very valid topic. Dmb's opinion
>>>> is quite interesting, but then it is only his opinion. imho
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>
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