I used the words 'only opinion' meaningonly opinion rather than
making an actual philosophical case.
On Sep 1, 2011, at 8:10 AM, MarshaV wrote:
>
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 8:01 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>
>> Marsha,
>> That's true of all of us and all we say and we all know it.
>
> Is it? To quote again:
>
> According to the _Buddha-dharma_... all the pain we bring to ourselves
> and others
> --- the hatred, the warring, the grovelling, the manipulation --- is
> our own doing. It
> comes from our own hearts and minds, out of our own confusion.
> Furthermore, if we
> don't see exactly what the problem is, we're going to perpetuate it.
> We're going to
> teach our children our confusion, and we'll go on, generation after
> generation, doing
> more of the same to ourselves and to each other. (Hagen, 1997, p.16)
>
>
>>
>> It takes a conscious rhetorical choice to choose to say it in words in
>> a communication.
>
> I do not understand the point you are trying to make here? Saying what?
>
>
> Marsha
>
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:57 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ian,
>>>
>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 7:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can see Marsha I'm sure, that slipping in ...
>>>> "but then it is ONLY [dmb's] opinion"
>>>> ... is your part of perpetuating the warring you refer to?
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see it that way because it is _only my opinion_. I do not
>>> hold the Ultimate truth.
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> With respect to the Ant quotations, there is an element of exposing -
>>>> on the one hand / on the other hand - counter arguments in a thesis /
>>>> dissertation, so we might not read strong agreement by Ant into his
>>>> statement of the view of Pirsig's deficiencies ? (Ant can speak for
>>>> himself on that. Matt has already pointed out tactical rhetorical
>>>> reasons why Pirsig might not have wanted to emphasise that aspect in
>>>> his writing at the time.)
>>>>
>>>> dmb's view there was interesting - I happen to believe there was
>>>> something of a straw-man in this passage
>>>> "Various posters have come through here, usually religious types, who
>>>> insist that their philosophical positions shouldn't be judged on their
>>>> intellectual merits, as if it's cruel to hold them to such standards,
>>>> as if their position deserves respect simply because that position is
>>>> held by a person and people deserve respect. This silly, self-centered
>>>> attitude says, in effect, that being critical of another's position is
>>>> more or less the same as being a dick."
>>>> But it is interesting that dmb states HIS attitude clearly.
>>>>
>>>> (Straw-man - because it really just side-steps a debate of what is
>>>> "intellectual merit" - no-one would claim to be unreasonable, not even
>>>> the overtly religious types. It's an open debate as to who's style of
>>>> debate is the more mature and constructive - Matt's point - and mine.)
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 11:42 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>
>>>>> From Anthony's Ph.D. thesis:
>>>>>
>>>>> "On the other hand, Pirsig's system remains a 'broad brush' as two (or
>>>>> more) judgements concerned with a particular moral dilemma can rely on
>>>>> criteria derived from the same evolutionary level. Moreover, there _is_
>>>>> considerable detail that Pirsig has overlooked from both Eastern and
>>>>> Western philosophical traditions, through this can be provided, to some
>>>>> extent, by researching the philosophers (such as Northrop, Nagarjuna and
>>>>> William James) who influenced his work. No doubt, in-depth comparisons
>>>>> between Pirsig and these philosophers would be beneficial in further
>>>>> clarifying the MoQ. Other issues overlooked by Pirsig are the Taoist
>>>>> quietist concern with the environment; discrimination on the grounds of
>>>>> race, gender culture and disability; the damage caused by global
>>>>> capitalism and the Buddhis emphasis on compassion.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Pirsig's failure to explicitly mention Buddhist compassion (karuna) in
>>>>> ZMM or LILA is possibly his most serious oversight. Compassion is
>>>>> defined by Rahula (1959, p.46) as representing universal... 'love,
>>>>> charity, kindness, tolerance, and such noble qualities on the emotional
>>>>> side' qualified by the following advice:
>>>>>
>>>>> If one develops only the emotional neglecting the intellectual, one
>>>>> may become a
>>>>> good-hearted fool; while to develop only the intellectual side
>>>>> neglecting the
>>>>> emotional may turn one into a hard-hearted intellect without
>>>>> feeling for others.
>>>>> Therefore, to be perfect one has to develop both equally. That is
>>>>> the aim of the
>>>>> Buddhist way of life: in it wisdom and compassion are inseparably
>>>>> linked together.
>>>>> (Rahula, 1959, p.46)
>>>>>
>>>>> "As numerous world problems are caused or aggravated due to lack of
>>>>> genuine compassion, it appears highly plausible that an increased
>>>>> consideration of the later would enhance the MoQ.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the _Buddha-dharma_... all the pain we bring to
>>>>> ourselves and others
>>>>> --- the hatred, the warring, the grovelling, the manipulation ---
>>>>> is our own doing. It
>>>>> comes from our own hearts and minds, out of our own confusion.
>>>>> Furthermore, if we
>>>>> don't see exactly what the problem is, we're going to perpetuate
>>>>> it. We're going to
>>>>> teach our children our confusion, and we'll go on, generation after
>>>>> generation, doing
>>>>> more of the same to ourselves and to each other. (Hagen, 1997, p.16)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (McWatt, Anthony, 'A Critical Analysis of Robert Pirsig's Metaphysics
>>>>> of Quality', pp. 214-215)
>>>>>
>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>> I agree with Anthony when he states "Pirsig's failure to explicitly
>>>>> mention Buddhist compassion (karuna) in ZMM or LILA is possibly his most
>>>>> serious oversight."; and so think it is a very valid topic. Dmb's
>>>>> opinion is quite interesting, but then it is only his opinion. imho
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>
>>>
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