Dear Marsha, I have no idea what is REAL for you and what is PHONY, although I am sure you do. If I am driving through a neighborhood and two young children suddenly appear crossing the street chasing a ball, that is pretty REAL for me, and I slam on the breaks.
This is MoQ discuss, and my attempt is to provide analogies so that other, non-indoctrinated, readers can better tune into MoQ. Others seem to use this forum as a chat-room, which is fine, just not my style. When we start talking about REAL, it can lead nowhere. Pirsig separates Quality into DQ and sq, which is REAL and PHONEY respectably. This is of course an artificial "imaginary" separation, and is simply used for the purposes of exposition (one of the tools of rhetoric). What Buddha said was pure pure static quality by way of analogy as well. It had to be since he used words which only represent static quality. Some would say that all he felt was static quality since it came through the senses. But I know that there is much more than what simply comes through our senses. There are many paths to enlightenment, and MoQ is one of them. If we want to talk about REAL, let us try using science (which is pure static quality) to see where it takes us. I will use the example of vision, which is one of our senses. According to science, vision is reified in the back of our heads in an area known as the visual cortex. The eyes transmit information, which is then converted to an image. The visual cortex is completely "in the dark" within our heads. As we walk around, the images we see are not formed by our eyes, but by something that has never seen the light of day. So, the next time you are taking a walk, be fully aware that what you are seeing is coming from the back of your brain and not from your eyes. For that is more REAL than assuming that the images are coming from your eyes. If you do that for long enough, you will begin to "see" that we are completely blind, and assuming that what goes on in the dark in our skulls is REAL. This kind of exercise can bring about some awakening. The same can be said of a hot stove. We do not actually feel that the stove is hot, for that sensation is also happening in our brains which is far removed from the hot stove. Next time you touch a hot stove, be aware that the sensation that the stove is hot is not being created by your hand touching the stove, but in your head. So, from this we can say that nothing coming through our "senses" is actually REAL, but a creation of the brain. This is all good an well, but where does that all take us? There are other easy ways for enlightenment. For example looking at yourself looking at yourself in a mirror, and contemplating that. Or thinking about thinking and "seeing" what is beyond that circle (and no, it is not one of those infinite series kind of things where we are thinking about thinking about thinking....). These very simple reflective circles provide a platform to escape static quality. Such escape is nothing one can write about with any exactness, since such writing just does not make any sense to do in that context. It would be like breaking a painting down into individual brush-strokes and writing about each one to describe what the painting means to you. In the same way, Pirsig's analogy of static and dynamic quality does the same thing. These are of course tools and should not be confused with anything else. The important thing to remember is that enlightenment does not come through learning, or through experience, it happens suddenly if one is in the right place at the right time, with the right thinking. Pirsig had the wrong thinking when he became "enlightened", and suffered a nervous breakdown which required serious medical treatment. Platt had the same issue. This is why the use of a teacher or sensei is recommended. There are too many people who think too much and then loose their minds when it is not at all necessary. One can be enlightened many, many times, it is not an "end of the road" type of thing as Buddha would proclaim; he just stopped growing. Once enlightened, it can be said that nothing has changed, for how could it? As they say in Zen, the mountains are once again the mountains, and the trees are once again the trees. My remarks to you are not to produce any kind of Truth, for we know that such a thing does not exist, at least as we use the word in the West. They are just to provide you with some alternatives to your rigid thinking. This is why rhetoric is so important. It does not produce Truth, it produces Beauty. These are of course very different things. So when you speak to me of not confusing static patterns with what is REAL, it seems to me that you have missed the entire point of MoQ. Just my perception of where you are going. Cheers, Mark On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:00 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mark, > > I have thought about it, and I agree that it is indeed a wonderful ability of > humans, but I can no longer confuse static patterns as something REAL. I > sometimes think that neither can you. > > > Marsha > > > > > > On Sep 5, 2011, at 6:04 PM, 118 wrote: > >> What is the carrot for reification? Think about it and you may have a new >> feeling for reification. It is indeed a wonderful ability of Man's. >> >> Mark >> >> On Sep 5, 2011, at 4:02 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Glossary >>> >>> reification (Tib. bden 'dzin), Grasping on to inherent existence, >>> projecting true existence onto empty phenomena. >>> >>> (Wallace, Alan, ‘Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom >>> Lingpa's Vajra Essence’) >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
