Hi T. I will give this a shot. MoQ provides the analogy of dividing our reality into different apparitions of Quality. The intellectual is one of these. Within the framework of discussion (which is social quality), MoQ is a form of intellectual quality. With set theory such as this, there is always a contradiction. While MoQ is a social quality interaction of an intellectual quality, it also encompasses itself. This would be similar to the concept of "the set of all sets". This described set, would also include itself, which does not work through standard set logic. This has been resolved (mathematically) by some intelligent creators of math theory. So, it could be said that MoQ is intellectual quality and more.
So, while MoQ is the social presentation of intellectual quality, it is also more than that. This kind of contradiction is normal in this group theory type of analysis, and should not be used as any kind of proof that the metaphysics is faulty, for there are many ways around this. We as individuals 'know" what social quality is, and we do not need social interaction to tell us this. Once we enter into the social level of quality (as we do through these posts), we cannot turn around and define what we are creating. This would be like a finger pointing to itself. Common intellectual logic falls apart at this point. It would be like each of us trying to "see" ourselves. It cannot be done since the eye cannot see itself. This has, of course, resulted in a false logical premise of Buddhism that the self does not exist. If I do not know anything else, I know I exist, no matter what kind of logic is thrown at me to the contrary. In my book, defining and describing are pretty much the same thing. Nothing can be fully defined by language, for there are not enough words. Think of all the ways you could define a house. We stick to simple definitions so that the social level of quality can function. With that in mind, I could say that social quality is the expression of a group which is distinct from the expression of the self. Something more than the self arrises at that level. One example would be words and language. If there was no other person, we would not need language. By describing social quality through language, we create static quality. This is important since static quality must be created to exist. So I would reverse your statement below to say "social quality can be described and becomes through that a form of static quality". In terms of how we describe Intellectual Quality, there are many options. It is an artificial division of Quality for the purposes of rhetoric. I have no problem agreeing on some mutual description of intellectual quality, but I am afraid that there are too many renegades in this forum to make such a thing useful. We could make the set of intellectual quality encompassing of parts of all levels and see where this takes us intellectually. There is no reason not to try this. The Devil is in the details. Hope this helps, Mark On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko <[email protected]> wrote: > According to MOQ, there's social quality, intellectual quality and other > forms of quality. Is the MOQ itself exclusively intellectual quality? > > If yes, we don't know what social quality is. It's not described in SOM. It > has only been described in Pirsig's writing, but these descriptions cannot > belong to the MOQ, because the MOQ is exclusively intellectual quality. But > according to Lila we do know what social quality is. Therefore, there's a > contradiction in Lila. > > If we say that MOQ can _define_ social quality, but cannot _describe_ it, > then social quality is like Dynamic Quality. But according to Lila, social > quality is static quality, and therefore describable. This also indicates a > contradiction in Lila. > > If we take the position that the MOQ itself is not exclusively intellectual > quality, we do not have these contradictions. In that case we apparently do > not bar the MOQ from being inorganic, biological, social or Dynamic, > although it certainly is also intellectual. > > -Tuukka > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
