Arlo said to Dan:
...Your phrasing "static quality illusions" seems to point to the fact that
SQ=Illusion, and I was responding to that. I do maintain, however, that
"illusions" do not exist within a MOQ, illusions are what emerge from the SOM
that a MOQ seeks to overcome. ... "S's" and "O's" do not "exist". That is the
trap of SOM the MOQ argues against. ... the "illusion" I am referring to is the
"existential" reality of said "thing"... I get that, there are no primary
objects (or subjects) that precede direct experience. And on that level to call
the primacy of objects an "illusion" makes absolute sense to me. But
experientially? Wasn't this Pirsig's point in ZMM? How can anyone say the bombs
were "illusions"?
... I'd say that seeing "free will" as some existential "out there" thing that
floats around and controls experience is certainly an illusion. But the concept
of "free will" is an intellectual pattern of value, a way we explain and make
sense of our experience. Of course, I have said I don't think it is the best
way we can explain this, I personally think agency/structuration is a better
metaphor than free will/determinism. But my argument is that "free will" is
only an illusion when it is offered as some existential "object" that exists
independent of experience. But as a mediating intellectual pattern of value, it
can have high or low value based on its success in not only describing
experience but giving YOU the tools you want to navigate the stream of
experience.
dmb says:
I think you're right on both major points here and those points are well said
too. In fact, I was trying to make your first point recently in the "algebra of
illusion" post. The algebraic equation works against claims about what things
"really" are beyond their appearances but the MOQ doesn't make any such claims.
It begins by rejecting claims as to what things "really" are. It says that your
idea of the earth and sky and everything else is just that, an idea. It says
don't reify that idea, don't believe that your idea is how things "really" are.
So if you plug the MOQ's assertions into the equation, it's like using a double
negative. You'd end up reversing yourself, because the MOQ and that equation
are both meant to work against the claims of Platonists, essentialists,
realists and the like. It would be a matter of being opposed to essentialism
AND opposed to the opponents of essentialism at the same time. The MOQ doesn't
ask if an idea corresponds with reality as it really
is. It simply asks if an idea works AS an idea. Ideas have to work in
experience and so they agree with reality as it's experienced in that broader
sense, but this is not correspondence to an objective reality of things. Truth
is not matching your ideas to the way things "really" are so much as it is a
good marriage between your thinking and your living, a good fit between the
conceptual tool and the empirical flux.
I've been trying to make your second point to Steve for quite a while now.
What's the simplest way to make that point? The MOQ does not reject ALL
conceptions of free will. The MOQ has its own particular sort of free will, its
own version of what it takes for one's behavior to be free and its own
particular sort of determining factors. (I also agree that agency and
structuration is a good way to think of these two elements - or simply freedom
and restraint.) I think it's pretty obvious that we can totally reject the
concept of free will as the capacity OF the autonomous self, OF the Cartesian
self, OF the rational self or OF the Christian soul, without also rejecting the
MOQ's radically empirical version. We can reject free will AS the property of
these various metaphysical entities without rejecting the general concept of
free will. It's the metaphysical additions to and explanations of free will
that we're rejecting, not the freedom itself. In the MOQ, this freedom is not
predicated on any pre-existing metaphysical posits. It's an empirical, exper
iential fact, one that richly deserves serious consideration because we're
talking about human life and human freedom, after all.
If we reject any kind agency, all versions of free will as illusions then we
are very likely to end up in the determinist's camp, wherein free will and
morality are both considered to be illusions. This would be almost directly
opposed to the MOQ, wherein morality and freedom are paramount, wherein freedom
is the goal of evolution and protecting the ongoing process of evolution is
what we mean by morality. As you may have noticed, I think this point is a
pretty big one. It's so central to the MOQ, I think, that it wouldn't be too
much of an exaggeration to say it's a tragic mistake to miss this point.
Everybody's battle involves these two elements; sq and DQ are the quality of
order and the quality of freedom. You ARE those two elements. Evolution and
growth is the dance of those two elements.
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