Hi JA, Certainly thermodynamics is an accepted scientific method for the presentation of "what is". As a physical biochemist I am aware of its shortcomings. It is a self contained system that is based on definitions.
However, if it helps you to explain a Quality approach to perceiving reality, more power to you. I am working beyond thermodynamics in the area of metaphysics. Such interpretation goes beyond the equations you are fond of. Kind regards, Mark On Oct 5, 2012, at 2:35 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <[email protected]> wrote: > [email protected]> > <[email protected]> > <CAP2xam6OLqeVDm_f=TOY_zTUK8vDaXTeF4b8SRh1QWR_X [email protected]> > To: [email protected] > X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) > > Thanks Mark. > > 4 levels and 3 dimensions of the thermodynamics is enough for me so far. > I have some funny ideas for a sequel but nothing definite yet. I think you > will be surprised anyway. > > One track takes a lot of math and physics to read first. > > Don't forget to post a review on iTunes bookstore. > > May betterness be with you > > Jan Anders > > > 5 okt 2012 kl. 07.35 skrev 118: > >> Hi JA, >> Congratulations! >> Hope you have a sequel in the works. Don't wait 20 years and write one >> just out of necessity! Remember, beware of fame. >> >> I have been using MoQ for almost 40 years now and am not even aware of it. >> That is, until I post on this forum to explain how it works. I hope your >> wrench is becoming more handy for you. All it takes is practice, my >> friend. You will get the hang of it and forget you are using it too. >> Leave the instructions behind and let the motorcycle become you. >> >> Regards, >> Mark >> >> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Jan Anders Andersson >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> [email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) >>> >>> Hi Mark >>> >>> Today's score: (all these funny names sounds like some weird poetry, not >>> to mention the list of the names of the ‘likers’) >>> >>> Örebro, Örebro Län >>> London, England' >>> San Benigno Canavese, Piemonte >>> Rohtak, Haryana >>> Vadodara, Gujarat >>> New Delhi, Delhi >>> Norwich, England >>> Mysore, Karnataka >>> Mandatoriccio, Calabria >>> Kohima, Nagaland >>> Zaragoza, Aragon >>> Conversano, Puglia >>> Waterloo, Ontario >>> Toronto, Ontario >>> Metz, Lorraine >>> Moncton, New Brunswick >>> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >>> Gropello Cairoli, Lombardia >>> Amravati, Maharashtra >>> Bilaspur, Chhattisgarh >>> >>> Seems like East and US is losing ground... >>> >>> Keep up the good reading, don't forget to take care of the organic level >>> in between. >>> The world out there is waiting for you using your MOQ wrench. >>> >>> Jan Anders >>> >>> >>> 3 okt 2012 kl. 05.44 skrev 118: >>> >>>> Hi Jan Anders, >>>> >>>> Thank you for the input on your book. I must admit I did read your book >>>> rather quickly as I do sometimes to get the overall feel of a book such >>> as >>>> this. I appreciate the time you took to provide more explanation. I am >>>> providing some MoQ related comments below, so that you can get an idea >>>> where I am coming from so far as Quality is concerned. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Jan Anders Andersson < >>> [email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> I think you should be interested of what "Money and the Art of Losing >>>>> Control" has to do with MOQ as it seems that you want to know more about >>>>> Quality. MALC is generally a story about how to USE (or not use:-) the >>>>> knowledge of MOQ and Quality in our daily ordinary life. I don't >>> consider >>>>> MOQ to be just some mind game. It's an intellectual tool to be used. >>>> >>>> Mark: >>>> I believe this is a place where we may differ in terms of Quality. We >>> both >>>> probably agree that MoQ is a metaphysical presentation of what Pirsig >>> terms >>>> Quality. He uses this term with good reason since we all know what >>> Quality >>>> is without having to define it. However, it is my impression that >>> Quality >>>> does not fit within the traditional S/O interpretation of reality. For >>> me, >>>> Quality is a manner of interpreting reality in a manner which does away >>>> with subjects and objects. Therefore, when I think of "using" Quality, I >>>> think in terms of interpreting the world as Quality (seeing the world as >>>> objectless). The metaphysics presented in MoQ is one example of how this >>>> can be done, but the interpretation of existence through a Quality >>> paradigm >>>> can be explained in many ways. While the levels are interesting, they >>> are >>>> not necessary for beginning a journey by Quality. This should be >>> obvious, >>>> since many people knew what Quality was long before Lila was written. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> JA: One of the most basic issues of the MOQ is change. Without change >>>>> there would be no cosmological evolution. Without the possibility of a >>>>> change there would be no meaning in motorcycle maintenance, getting >>> drunk >>>>> and picking up bar ladies. >>>> >>>> Mark: >>>> As presented, MoQ could encompass change. It would not be the first >>>> metaphysics to do so, since an interpretation through science also brings >>>> change to the forefront. So I do not think that Change is a big part of >>> an >>>> interpretation through Quality. I think the main force of such >>>> interpretation comes from the ability to completely dismiss subjects and >>>> objects. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> JA: Change deserves time-space. Time is crucial for the experience of >>>>> Quality because there is a moment before the experience, under and >>> after. >>>>> Every pattern is repeated, from time to time, it is frequently >>> recurring. >>>>> Truth is something that we can presume will occur again with great >>>>> significance. Every time it meets our expectations we will call it true. >>>>> From the smallest Higgs-Boson particle to galaxies in the universe we >>> can >>>>> see that it is a Way, Pattern or Method, to gain Energy, with its Form >>> and >>>>> with its Value. If something doesn't have a certain amount of Energy, a >>>>> characteristic Form and an influencing Value, it is not proved to exist >>> as >>>>> a real static pattern. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark: >>>> I understand why you bring in traditional scientific paradigms, for that >>> is >>>> what we are brought up with. However, such examples can lead directly >>> away >>>> from an appreciation of Quality. For what science does is create objects >>>> as its main mode of interpretation of reality. These objects are very >>>> misleading and can cloud any understanding of awareness through Quality. >>>> The more objects and examples one brings in from this scientific >>>> discipline, the more one is drawn away from Pirsig's Quality, in my >>> opinion. >>>> >>>> However, I do see what you are trying to do, and i like your examples. >>> We >>>> make things up like Energy and Patterns, for that is our way >>>> of interpreting existence in traditional Western ways. That is, we create >>>> these things. That we see there is a Way, it is only because we have >>>> created such a Way. Of course this is important, since it is of great >>>> value to make the cosmos personal. The world we create "out there" is >>>> actually happening in our heads and is determined by the make up of our >>>> bodies. It is the interaction of that "out there" and our bodies that >>>> becomes the reality we are sensing. As such, we cannot rightly separate >>>> ourselves from that which we see. They are both the same thing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> JA: The conditions that let matter, patterns arise as Static Values >>>>> depending on Dynamic Quality are important to know. One of the most >>>>> important experiences for any pattern is the time experience. Before, >>> now >>>>> and later. >>>> >>>> Mark: >>>> So far as I can tell, patterns do not arrise, we create them. We are >>>> responsible for the patterns by which we interpret the world. Without >>>> anybody to create these patterns they do not exist. Patterning is one of >>>> the highest achievements of Man. The other one is, of course, humor. >>>> Matter does not arise, we bring it to life and call it matter. We are >>> the >>>> creators of such matter since they become patterns in our heads. This is >>>> what is meant by the Ghost of Reason. Matter as we traditionally use the >>>> word is a ghost, it is a fabrication. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> JA: Every event, every episode in the book MALC is an example of the >>>>> influence of Quality and the levels affecting our reality patterns. The >>>>> trip starts and ends at the same place, like a circular movement. It has >>>>> its certain top and bottom points. Every emotional sensation is >>>>> representing a value transmitted to the owner of the human pattern, how >>> to >>>>> read the 42 guiding "lights" from the biological level and make the best >>>>> choice from that. Biological patterns build their patterns upon their >>>>> experience from inorganic characteristic patterns. When Elsa is a sleep, >>>>> when John falls asleep, they are leaving the social level and all that >>> is >>>>> left is their biological and inorganic patterns. Social patterns depend >>> on >>>>> biological values, some time it is true, sometime the intellectual >>> pattern >>>>> in the mind mirror show a false picture of the social level. >>>> >>>> Mark: >>>> OK, cool, I will keep that in mind when I get there (second time around). >>>> >>>> >>>>> JA: When the spear passes Johns face he's facing the danger of a >>>>> One-dimensional pattern thrown by a disguised enemy with an untrue >>> Quality >>>>> experience. The dogs represents static power with not much intellectual >>>>> understanding. Our modern era dominated by Monetaristic thinking is very >>>>> dangerus because it is sort of a one-dimensional pattern. The "economic >>>>> man" is so primitive and that is why I suspect Ayn Rand to be a >>> undercover >>>>> agent sent by Josef Stalin to infiltrate western thinking into some >>> kind of >>>>> photonegative mindmap of the economic machinery planned by the russian >>>>> communists. MALC is my contribution to broaden the perspective and show >>> the >>>>> other important dimensions of economics. >>>> >>>> Mark: When you speak of "primitive man" it reminds me of a movie I just >>>> saw called The Master. It is meant to be about "Scientology", where we >>> are >>>> trapped in our primitive brains due to evil forces, of something. A >>> pretty >>>> good movie. I really have no problem with Scientology although I am not >>>> a practitioner, it is Scientism that I have a problem with. We have >>> become >>>> so bewitched by the world of objects and their "measurement" that we do >>> not >>>> see that they are simply shadows being cast within our brains, and we >>>> forget what it is that is casting these shadows. Of course Plato speaks >>> of >>>> this as well. >>>> >>>> The point of MoQ is to get out of the cave of shadows. Forget Science >>> and >>>> all that it professes. All that stuff is entertaining, but is also >>>> addictive. People actually think that light is a wave or a particle. Of >>>> course it is neither of these things, such models are >>>> simply descriptions of light. Light has nothing to do with waves or >>>> particles, those are just patterns we create. If I paint a landscape, I >>> do >>>> not then confuse my painting for the actual landscape. In the same way, >>> we >>>> should not confuse light with our description of it. Scientism is a dead >>>> end. It leads nowhere in terms of metaphysics. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> JA: When John is chased by the ice floes, he's experiences the danger >>>>> of Two-dimensional patterns. When the passing train makes the ground to >>>>> vibrate it is a power like exergy in change that creates new patterns. >>>>> When the rabbit is crushed by the tyre it changes its Three-dimensional >>>>> pattern into a two-dimensional and it dies. Flat dog, no good. >>>>> When John walks through the dressing room his biological pattern is >>>>> causing trouble for the female social environment. His biological nose >>> is >>>>> misleading him and so on. He is a lousy card player, why doesn't he care >>>>> more for it? >>>> >>>> Yes, I like the two dimensional patterns for that is what objects are. >>> If >>>> we live in a world of self created objects, we become two dimensional. >>> MoQ >>>> provides one way in which to escape this form of existence. We are >>> allowed >>>> to stand up and actually look around rather than scurry around as >>> shadows. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> JA: Thanks for the inspiration. Maybe you should get more from a reread >>>>> with this in mind. >>>> >>>> Thanks, I will. >>>> >>>> Hope what I present makes sense. I find much more value in a world >>> without >>>> objects. Like I say, Quality is a different way of looking at reality. >>>> Most would call it insane. But that is simply because it has not caught >>>> on, yet... >>>> >>>> I have to say, that I interpret the levels in a very different way than >>> you >>>> do, as well. Whatever works, heh? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
