[email protected]> <[email protected]> To: [email protected] X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
High Mark You seem to be a funny guy. How do you define Metaphysic? Jan Anders 5 okt 2012 kl. 23.24 skrev 118: > Hi JA, > Certainly thermodynamics is an accepted scientific method for the > presentation of "what is". As a physical biochemist I am aware of its > shortcomings. It is a self contained system that is based on definitions. > > However, if it helps you to explain a Quality approach to perceiving reality, > more power to you. I am working beyond thermodynamics in the area of > metaphysics. Such interpretation goes beyond the equations you are fond of. > > Kind regards, > > > Mark > > On Oct 5, 2012, at 2:35 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> [email protected]> >> <[email protected]> >> <CAP2xam6OLqeVDm_f=TOY_zTUK8vDaXTeF4b8SRh1QWR_X [email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) >> >> Thanks Mark. >> >> 4 levels and 3 dimensions of the thermodynamics is enough for me so far. >> I have some funny ideas for a sequel but nothing definite yet. I think you >> will be surprised anyway. >> >> One track takes a lot of math and physics to read first. >> >> Don't forget to post a review on iTunes bookstore. >> >> May betterness be with you >> >> Jan Anders >> >> >> 5 okt 2012 kl. 07.35 skrev 118: >> >>> Hi JA, >>> Congratulations! >>> Hope you have a sequel in the works. Don't wait 20 years and write one >>> just out of necessity! Remember, beware of fame. >>> >>> I have been using MoQ for almost 40 years now and am not even aware of it. >>> That is, until I post on this forum to explain how it works. I hope your >>> wrench is becoming more handy for you. All it takes is practice, my >>> friend. You will get the hang of it and forget you are using it too. >>> Leave the instructions behind and let the motorcycle become you. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mark >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Jan Anders Andersson >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> [email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) >>>> >>>> Hi Mark >>>> >>>> Today's score: (all these funny names sounds like some weird poetry, not >>>> to mention the list of the names of the ‘likers’) >>>> >>>> Örebro, Örebro Län >>>> London, England' >>>> San Benigno Canavese, Piemonte >>>> Rohtak, Haryana >>>> Vadodara, Gujarat >>>> New Delhi, Delhi >>>> Norwich, England >>>> Mysore, Karnataka >>>> Mandatoriccio, Calabria >>>> Kohima, Nagaland >>>> Zaragoza, Aragon >>>> Conversano, Puglia >>>> Waterloo, Ontario >>>> Toronto, Ontario >>>> Metz, Lorraine >>>> Moncton, New Brunswick >>>> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >>>> Gropello Cairoli, Lombardia >>>> Amravati, Maharashtra >>>> Bilaspur, Chhattisgarh >>>> >>>> Seems like East and US is losing ground... >>>> >>>> Keep up the good reading, don't forget to take care of the organic level >>>> in between. >>>> The world out there is waiting for you using your MOQ wrench. >>>> >>>> Jan Anders >>>> >>>> >>>> 3 okt 2012 kl. 05.44 skrev 118: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jan Anders, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for the input on your book. I must admit I did read your book >>>>> rather quickly as I do sometimes to get the overall feel of a book such >>>> as >>>>> this. I appreciate the time you took to provide more explanation. I am >>>>> providing some MoQ related comments below, so that you can get an idea >>>>> where I am coming from so far as Quality is concerned. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Jan Anders Andersson < >>>> [email protected] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you should be interested of what "Money and the Art of Losing >>>>>> Control" has to do with MOQ as it seems that you want to know more about >>>>>> Quality. MALC is generally a story about how to USE (or not use:-) the >>>>>> knowledge of MOQ and Quality in our daily ordinary life. I don't >>>> consider >>>>>> MOQ to be just some mind game. It's an intellectual tool to be used. >>>>> >>>>> Mark: >>>>> I believe this is a place where we may differ in terms of Quality. We >>>> both >>>>> probably agree that MoQ is a metaphysical presentation of what Pirsig >>>> terms >>>>> Quality. He uses this term with good reason since we all know what >>>> Quality >>>>> is without having to define it. However, it is my impression that >>>> Quality >>>>> does not fit within the traditional S/O interpretation of reality. For >>>> me, >>>>> Quality is a manner of interpreting reality in a manner which does away >>>>> with subjects and objects. Therefore, when I think of "using" Quality, I >>>>> think in terms of interpreting the world as Quality (seeing the world as >>>>> objectless). The metaphysics presented in MoQ is one example of how this >>>>> can be done, but the interpretation of existence through a Quality >>>> paradigm >>>>> can be explained in many ways. While the levels are interesting, they >>>> are >>>>> not necessary for beginning a journey by Quality. This should be >>>> obvious, >>>>> since many people knew what Quality was long before Lila was written. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> JA: One of the most basic issues of the MOQ is change. Without change >>>>>> there would be no cosmological evolution. Without the possibility of a >>>>>> change there would be no meaning in motorcycle maintenance, getting >>>> drunk >>>>>> and picking up bar ladies. >>>>> >>>>> Mark: >>>>> As presented, MoQ could encompass change. It would not be the first >>>>> metaphysics to do so, since an interpretation through science also brings >>>>> change to the forefront. So I do not think that Change is a big part of >>>> an >>>>> interpretation through Quality. I think the main force of such >>>>> interpretation comes from the ability to completely dismiss subjects and >>>>> objects. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> JA: Change deserves time-space. Time is crucial for the experience of >>>>>> Quality because there is a moment before the experience, under and >>>> after. >>>>>> Every pattern is repeated, from time to time, it is frequently >>>> recurring. >>>>>> Truth is something that we can presume will occur again with great >>>>>> significance. Every time it meets our expectations we will call it true. >>>>>> From the smallest Higgs-Boson particle to galaxies in the universe we >>>> can >>>>>> see that it is a Way, Pattern or Method, to gain Energy, with its Form >>>> and >>>>>> with its Value. If something doesn't have a certain amount of Energy, a >>>>>> characteristic Form and an influencing Value, it is not proved to exist >>>> as >>>>>> a real static pattern. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mark: >>>>> I understand why you bring in traditional scientific paradigms, for that >>>> is >>>>> what we are brought up with. However, such examples can lead directly >>>> away >>>>> from an appreciation of Quality. For what science does is create objects >>>>> as its main mode of interpretation of reality. These objects are very >>>>> misleading and can cloud any understanding of awareness through Quality. >>>>> The more objects and examples one brings in from this scientific >>>>> discipline, the more one is drawn away from Pirsig's Quality, in my >>>> opinion. >>>>> >>>>> However, I do see what you are trying to do, and i like your examples. >>>> We >>>>> make things up like Energy and Patterns, for that is our way >>>>> of interpreting existence in traditional Western ways. That is, we create >>>>> these things. That we see there is a Way, it is only because we have >>>>> created such a Way. Of course this is important, since it is of great >>>>> value to make the cosmos personal. The world we create "out there" is >>>>> actually happening in our heads and is determined by the make up of our >>>>> bodies. It is the interaction of that "out there" and our bodies that >>>>> becomes the reality we are sensing. As such, we cannot rightly separate >>>>> ourselves from that which we see. They are both the same thing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> JA: The conditions that let matter, patterns arise as Static Values >>>>>> depending on Dynamic Quality are important to know. One of the most >>>>>> important experiences for any pattern is the time experience. Before, >>>> now >>>>>> and later. >>>>> >>>>> Mark: >>>>> So far as I can tell, patterns do not arrise, we create them. We are >>>>> responsible for the patterns by which we interpret the world. Without >>>>> anybody to create these patterns they do not exist. Patterning is one of >>>>> the highest achievements of Man. The other one is, of course, humor. >>>>> Matter does not arise, we bring it to life and call it matter. We are >>>> the >>>>> creators of such matter since they become patterns in our heads. This is >>>>> what is meant by the Ghost of Reason. Matter as we traditionally use the >>>>> word is a ghost, it is a fabrication. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> JA: Every event, every episode in the book MALC is an example of the >>>>>> influence of Quality and the levels affecting our reality patterns. The >>>>>> trip starts and ends at the same place, like a circular movement. It has >>>>>> its certain top and bottom points. Every emotional sensation is >>>>>> representing a value transmitted to the owner of the human pattern, how >>>> to >>>>>> read the 42 guiding "lights" from the biological level and make the best >>>>>> choice from that. Biological patterns build their patterns upon their >>>>>> experience from inorganic characteristic patterns. When Elsa is a sleep, >>>>>> when John falls asleep, they are leaving the social level and all that >>>> is >>>>>> left is their biological and inorganic patterns. Social patterns depend >>>> on >>>>>> biological values, some time it is true, sometime the intellectual >>>> pattern >>>>>> in the mind mirror show a false picture of the social level. >>>>> >>>>> Mark: >>>>> OK, cool, I will keep that in mind when I get there (second time around). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> JA: When the spear passes Johns face he's facing the danger of a >>>>>> One-dimensional pattern thrown by a disguised enemy with an untrue >>>> Quality >>>>>> experience. The dogs represents static power with not much intellectual >>>>>> understanding. Our modern era dominated by Monetaristic thinking is very >>>>>> dangerus because it is sort of a one-dimensional pattern. The "economic >>>>>> man" is so primitive and that is why I suspect Ayn Rand to be a >>>> undercover >>>>>> agent sent by Josef Stalin to infiltrate western thinking into some >>>> kind of >>>>>> photonegative mindmap of the economic machinery planned by the russian >>>>>> communists. MALC is my contribution to broaden the perspective and show >>>> the >>>>>> other important dimensions of economics. >>>>> >>>>> Mark: When you speak of "primitive man" it reminds me of a movie I just >>>>> saw called The Master. It is meant to be about "Scientology", where we >>>> are >>>>> trapped in our primitive brains due to evil forces, of something. A >>>> pretty >>>>> good movie. I really have no problem with Scientology although I am not >>>>> a practitioner, it is Scientism that I have a problem with. We have >>>> become >>>>> so bewitched by the world of objects and their "measurement" that we do >>>> not >>>>> see that they are simply shadows being cast within our brains, and we >>>>> forget what it is that is casting these shadows. Of course Plato speaks >>>> of >>>>> this as well. >>>>> >>>>> The point of MoQ is to get out of the cave of shadows. Forget Science >>>> and >>>>> all that it professes. All that stuff is entertaining, but is also >>>>> addictive. People actually think that light is a wave or a particle. Of >>>>> course it is neither of these things, such models are >>>>> simply descriptions of light. Light has nothing to do with waves or >>>>> particles, those are just patterns we create. If I paint a landscape, I >>>> do >>>>> not then confuse my painting for the actual landscape. In the same way, >>>> we >>>>> should not confuse light with our description of it. Scientism is a dead >>>>> end. It leads nowhere in terms of metaphysics. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> JA: When John is chased by the ice floes, he's experiences the danger >>>>>> of Two-dimensional patterns. When the passing train makes the ground to >>>>>> vibrate it is a power like exergy in change that creates new patterns. >>>>>> When the rabbit is crushed by the tyre it changes its Three-dimensional >>>>>> pattern into a two-dimensional and it dies. Flat dog, no good. >>>>>> When John walks through the dressing room his biological pattern is >>>>>> causing trouble for the female social environment. His biological nose >>>> is >>>>>> misleading him and so on. He is a lousy card player, why doesn't he care >>>>>> more for it? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I like the two dimensional patterns for that is what objects are. >>>> If >>>>> we live in a world of self created objects, we become two dimensional. >>>> MoQ >>>>> provides one way in which to escape this form of existence. We are >>>> allowed >>>>> to stand up and actually look around rather than scurry around as >>>> shadows. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> JA: Thanks for the inspiration. Maybe you should get more from a reread >>>>>> with this in mind. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, I will. >>>>> >>>>> Hope what I present makes sense. I find much more value in a world >>>> without >>>>> objects. Like I say, Quality is a different way of looking at reality. >>>>> Most would call it insane. But that is simply because it has not caught >>>>> on, yet... >>>>> >>>>> I have to say, that I interpret the levels in a very different way than >>>> you >>>>> do, as well. Whatever works, heh? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All the best, >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
