Hi Jan I am asking how all this talk of concepts fits with how we understand experience as per the MOQ, if you can help with this question I would be pleased to read what you can contribute, not obvious at all what you claim below, can you show it?
David M Jan Anders Andersson <[email protected]> wrote: >Don't be a fool DM. Obviously you're using an understanding of the word >"experience" that is different from what RMP is suggesting in Lila. > >Jan-Anders > >> 3 okt 2013 kl. 03:14 skrev David Morey <[email protected]>: >> >> DMB >> >> Concepts can agree to the pre-conceptual patterns/qualities we find in >> experience, how can concepts agree to pure flux in experience, although >> maybe point or indicate iS the starting place of concepts rather than >> agreement. The concept horizon draws a line to mark out the sky from the >> ground, clarifying and naming and identifying a pre-conceptual pattern in >> our experience of reality. If the concept blue does not pick out a >> pre-conceptual regularity/pattern of blueness, why is everything not blue >> and why is there red? And next let us discuss how to suck eggs if you need >> to dude. You do make me laugh! >> >> DM >> >> david buchanan <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Morey said to dmb: >>> ...You say the concept agrees with experience, well yes, but it cannot >>> agree to a flux, so what do we say? We can say it agrees with the dynamic >>> patterns of our experience, placing patterns in DQ rather than in SQ. >>> >>> >>> >>> dmb says: >>> You want to rearrange the MOQ into the shape of SOM because "the concept >>> agrees with experience," you say, "but it cannot agree to a flux". I think >>> this is what it all boils down to. >>> >>> Firstly, we are talking about DQ as an experiential flux, so saying "the >>> concept agrees with experience" is exactly the same as saying "the concept >>> agrees with the flux". You can't rightly accept one and deny the other. >>> >>> That's the idea, though. Reality (DQ) is an experiential flux, a stream of >>> experience, a flow of perceptions, an undifferentiated aesthetic continuum, >>> the endless landscape of awareness, pure experience, immediate experience, >>> preconceptual experience, unpatterned Quality, the pre-intellectual cutting >>> edge of experience. All these terms mean the same thing and THAT is whats >>> is being conceptualized. This is the source and substance of all static >>> patterns. Every last bit of it. >>> >>> This is what all those quotes said, David. Your question was answered by >>> the evidence before you even asked it. As I've tried to explain, your >>> objections to this "flux" don't seem at all legitimate because you're >>> demanding, basically, that we convert DQ into the pre-existing objective >>> reality of SOM. It's okay to raise objections, ask questions or otherwise >>> probe the meaning of this experiential flux - but converting it into its >>> enemy is an outrageously bad idea. That is nothing less that a rejection of >>> the MOQ, and for no good reason! >>> >>> >>> "Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING >>> FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to any concept >>> abstracted from this flux." (McWatt) >>> >>> Again, "....static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this >>> flux." (McWatt) >>> >>> >>> Paul Williams, a Buddhist scholar quoted by McWatt, says the same thing. >>> >>> "...imagine all things, objects of experience and oneself, the one who is >>> experiencing, as just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is >>> something 'out there'." >>> >>> AND >>> >>> "...there is only an EVER-CHANGING FLOW of perceptions ...we construct >>> these perceptions into enduring subjects and objects confronting each >>> other." >>> >>> >>> Pirsig, in chapter 29 of Lila, says the same thing that Williams just said. >>> >>> "Subjects and objects are ..concepts derived from something [James] >>> described as 'THE IMMEDIATE FLUX OF LIFE " >>> AND >>> "In this basic FLUX OF EXPERIENCE, the distinctions of reflective >>> thought,.. have not yet emerged in the forms which we make them." (Pirsig >>> in Lila) >>> >>> AND >>> >>> "There must always be a discrepancy between concepts and reality, because >>> the former are static and discontinuous while the latter is DYNAMIC AND >>> FLOWING." (Pirsig in Lila) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
