John, Is there a distinction between creativity and problem solving? -Ron
> On Jun 10, 2014, at 12:46 PM, Ron Kulp <[email protected]> wrote: > > John, > Again, isn't creativity a problem solving endeavor? > -Ron > >> On Jun 10, 2014, at 12:07 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Not at all, Ron. >> >> >>> On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Ron Kulp <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> John, >>> Ok, you feel creativity stands above excellence. But I ask, how is >>> creativity set apart from problem solving? Isn't necessity the mother if >>> invention? >>> - Ron >> I feel that creativity stands side-by-side with excellence. It's a >> marriage, not a hierarchy. >> >> John >> >> >> >> >>>> On Jun 9, 2014, at 1:15 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ron, >>>> >>>> >>>> Ron: >>>> >>>>> I think the main problem is the beginning assumptions about what >>>>> The term "intellect " means, to you. >>>> >>>> Jc: I'm sure that's true. Just about any philosophic problem hangs on >>> our >>>> assumptions. >>>> >>>> Ron: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Several definitions mention it as a faculty of the mind, a function of >>>>> consciousness, the act of critical >>>>> Thinking. >>>> >>>> >>>> jc: The act of critical thinking comes closest to my view. Everybody >>> has >>>> a mind, but not everybody uses their intellect. >>>> >>>> Ron; >>>> >>>> >>>>> But you by-pass those entries and hold to what interests you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jc: What interests me Ron, is that "the act of critical thinking" is >>> only >>>> half the story. Why then does the MoQ make it seem like the whole >>>> enchilada? >>>> >>>> Ron: >>>> >>>> >>>>> That traditional misunderstanding, which is what it is, >>>>> A traditional misunderstanding of the meaning of "intellect" handed down >>>>> by the Greeks. That misunderstanding is objectivism. Robert Pirsigs >>> project >>>>> Is to correct this misunderstanding. >>>>> That's why it's important to read Plato and Aristotle and understand >>>>> The origin of the Greek meaning and tradition of intellect. The project >>> is >>>>> about the recovery of a tradition of thought before misinterpretation >>>>> divided it. "Art is born when out of the many bits if information >>> derived >>>>> from experience there emerges a grasp of those similarities in view of >>>>> which they are unified whole." >>>>> Aristotle metaphysics book alpha. >>>>> >>>>> "Knowing in the truest sense concerns >>>>> What is best in the truest sense. So intellect finds it's fulfillment in >>>>> being aware of the intelligible. " >>>>> >>>>> "It is this better state that the divine has being and life, the self >>>>> sufficient activity of the divine is life at its eternal best." >>>>> - book Lambda >>>>> >>>>> To the Greeks knowing what is best >>>>> Is the divine aspect of being. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> JohnC >>>>>> >>>>>> PS: By "respond" I mean without resorting to "because RMP said so". >>>>>> Since's it's Pirsig's terminology I'm taking to task here, something >>> more >>>>>> is needed to defend it than the mere fact of what Pirsig said. >>>>> Ron: >>>>> How else are we to tie into what we mean. This is a site dedicated to >>> his >>>>> work. >>>> >>>> >>>> What I mean is, since I'm addressing a shortcoming in Pirsig's view, it's >>>> nonsensical to respond with "but that's Pirsig's view". or "you don't >>>> understand the MoQ" >>>> >>>> Look at the story - Phaedrus licked the daemon of objective intellect, >>>> right? And this thing, that he hated, was in himself as well, right? >>> That >>>> which endlessly analyzes and examines critically. Then in Lila, he falls >>>> back into, what he terms himself, "degenerate activity". (Matt 12:43-45) >>>> >>>> But the immorality was not doing metaphysics, the immorality was >>>> enthroning intellect as the king of all static being. The reason I say >>>> immoral is, because intellect was also doing the crowning. A king cannot >>>> crown himself. There must be otherness, at the top level to avoid >>>> recursion. >>>> >>>> Also immoral, because making the MoQ thus, allows intellect to bully and >>>> rule over all other patterns, putting itself first and reifying itself, >>> it >>>> then kills all opposition and alternative thinking. It's too static. DQ >>>> has been placed in the unobtainable ether where its inaccessible and we >>>> don't talk about it anymore. My solution is to bring it down to earth, >>> and >>>> make artistic imagination the partner of intellect at the 4th level and >>> not >>>> only is that satisfying (there's no place for ART in the MoQ!!) it's a >>>> logical solution because without imaginative conceptualization, there is >>>> nothing to critically analyze. Intellect is good at selecting among >>> given >>>> ideas - but then where do given ideas come from? Not intellect, or >>>> Phaedrus would have deduced how hypothesi arose. >>>> >>>> Thanks for hearing me out, Ron. >>>> >>>> John >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> -- >> "finite players >> play within boundaries. >> Infinite players >> play *with* boundaries." >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
