John said:
I have another problem with the SOP of MOQ interpretation. I don't agree that
the levels are discrete. The reason this seems so ridiculous to me is that
there is nothing so continuous as experience - life, the universe and
everything. Life without inorganic parts, would be nothing, societies without
biological beings would be empty and ideas that no society accepts are unheard
of. Every single level contains the levels below it. ...Inorgania does not
contain life and life does not contain society and society does not possess
intellect.
dmb says:
Again, you claim to disagree but in fact you merely misunderstand. You've
apparently misunderstood "discrete" to mean something quite drastic and
absolute. This is not what the MOQ says about the discrete levels. Even
further, you counter this misconception with the idea that each level grows out
of and contains the ones below it AS IF that were your idea and the MOQ did not
already say that. Thirdly, you base this on the notion that experience is
continuous as if the MOQ didn't already say that too. And fourthly, the levels
are static patterns in a system of understanding, not experience per se. There
are probably more errors in your claim, John, but all of these are big
mistakes. Contrary to your claims, Pirsig says the levels (unlike subject and
objects) "have a matter-of-fact evolutionary relationship". In fact, it's
subjects and objects that suffer from your overly exaggerated conception of
"discrete".
"Objects are inorganic and biological values; subjects are social and
intellectual values. They are not two mysterious universes that go floating
around in some subject-object dream that allows them no real contact with one
another. They have a matter-of-fact evolutionary relationship. That
evolutionary relationship is also a moral one."
By "mistakes" or "errors", I do not mean that you have failed to comply with
Pirsig's pronouncements or that you have failed to submit to my authority. It
simply means that your argument has too many brain farts to count as a valid
argument. It's just lousy thinking and I have just tried to explain exactly why
it stinks. There is a chance that you could learn something or improve your
thinking skills, but I'm not betting on it.
John (the drama queen) said:
...Is Pirsig about learning one route, and one route only? Or is Pirsig about
showing a way to find your own path? Because I'd always assumed it was the
latter, and if that's wrong. If what we are supposed to take from his work, is
memorizing words and parroting them exactly, then I guess I've really been
wrong about ZAMM and Lila. Arlo and dmb and Ant are right, I'm just stupid
and don't understand the MoQ, after all. Here I thought it was about Quality.
dmb says:
No, of course Pirsig's work is not about "one route only" or about "parroting".
But you seem to think that following your own path means that you are entitled
to produce a bunch of nonsense. Drivel and bullshit is simply not the same as
originality and creativity. Since the difference is all about Quality,
foolishness and freshness are quite opposite. Thinking critically is central to
the whole practice but you are just criticizing things that you don't
understand and disagreeing with things that nobody said. I promise that you'll
never earn respect for such nonsense in any philosophy forum. If you do that
repeatedly, most places will just ban you for being a troll.
Misunderstanding the MOQ or some aspect of it - all by itself - does not make
you (or anyone else) look stupid, John. Repeatly insisting that you understand
the MOQ ( despite the avalanche of unaddressed arguments and ignored evidence
showing otherwise) does make you look ridiculously obtuse. Though it was phrase
humorously, I sincerely think most of your positions have been totally defeated
but you seem quite blind to this. You're like a numb and blind boxer who
doesn't know that he's already been knocked on his ass. The match is over and
the stands are nearly empty but your arms keep swinging as if you're still in
the fight.
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