John, On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 10:27 AM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: > Dan, > > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Dan Glover <[email protected]> wrote: > >> John, >> >> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 1:49 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: >> > I have another problem with the SOP of MOQ interpretation. I don't >> > agree that the levels are discrete. >> >> Dan: >> I would say the levels are what the MOQ say they are. They are a >> system for organizing reality, not reality itself. The levels do not >> exist independently out there in the universe. That said, let's >> examine your argument... >> >> >JC: >> > >> > dis·crete >> > /dɪˈskrit/ >> > 1. >> > apart or detached from others; separate; distinct: six discrete parts. >> > 2. >> > consisting of or characterized by distinct or individual parts; >> discontinuous. >> > 3. >> > Mathematics . >> > a. >> > (of a topology or topological space) having the property that every >> > subset is an open set. >> > b. >> > defined only for an isolated set of points: a discrete variable. >> > c. >> > using only arithmetic and algebra; not involving calculus: discrete >> methods. >> > Origin: >> > 1350–1400; Middle English < Latin discrētus separated; see discreet >> > >> > >> > The reason this seems so ridiculous to me is that there is nothing so >> > continuous as experience - >> >> Dan: >> That's why Dynamic Quality and experience become synonymous in the >> MOQ. Experience isn't made up of static quality patterns... those come >> later. So you are talking about two different ideas here that are so >> far apart that apples and oranges doesn't come close to covering it. >> >> > Jc: If DQ and Experience are truly synonomous, then one of those terms is > redundant.
Dan: They are both terms pointing to the ineffable, if that's what you mean. I'm unsure where you see the redundancy. 'Dynamic Quality' is a term coined by Robert Pirsig while 'experience' is used universally, at least in the English language. As with many other English words, 'experience' can have multiply meanings depending upon the context. > JC: > Anyway, isn't it the *immediate* or pre-conceptual experience for which the > claim is made? Dan: Exactly! However, the way you used the term 'experience' suggests you are pointing to 'immediate' experience... "there is nothing so continuous as experience." >JC: > Most of experience is conceptual, in fact an idealist would claim all of > it is. Dan: All intellectual experience is conceptual, if you like. I prefer using the term 'intellectual quality patterns' rather than 'conceptual experience' but either could be seen as correct. > > > >> > JC: >> > life, the universe and everything. Life >> > without inorganic parts, would be nothing, societies without >> > biological beings would be empty and ideas that no society accepts are >> > unheard of. Every single level contains the levels below it. in >> > fact, the level below is defined only by what it is not! That qhixh >> > ia higher. Evolution doesn't take us out of the morass of nature. >> > Nature is evolution and raises us to higher purpose that includes all >> > lower patterns. The only way to define the lower is by the >> > not-upper. Inorgania does not contain life and life does not >> > contain society and society does not possess intellect. >> >> Dan: >> "In this plain of understanding static patterns of value are divided >> into four systems: inorganic patterns, biological patterns, social >> patterns and intellectual patterns. They are exhaustive. That's all >> there are. If you construct an encyclopedia of four topics-Inorganic, >> Biological, Social and Intellectual-nothing is left out. No "thing," >> that is. Only Dynamic Quality, which cannot be described in any >> encyclopedia, is absent. >> >> "But although the four systems are exhaustive they are not exclusive. >> They all operate at the same time and in ways that are almost >> independent of each other. >> >> > Jc: Yes, that's the passage with which I'm taking issue. I am saying that > the higher levels are dependent upon the continuous action of the lower. Dan: The levels share an evolutionary history, if that's what you mean. > > Lila: > > "This classification of patterns is not very original, but the >> Metaphysics of Quality allows an assertion about them that is unusual. >> It says they are not continuous. They are discrete. They have very >> little to do with one another. Although each higher level is built on >> a lower one it is not an extension of that lower level. Quite the >> contrary. The higher level can often be seen to be in opposition to >> the lower level, dominating it, controlling it where possible for its >> own purposes." [Lila] >> >> > > > >> Dan comments: >> I am not sure what your argument is here... the MOQ plainly states >> each level is built upon the lower one. The higher levels can be seen >> as in opposition to the lower levels... what they are not, in other >> words. You seem to have worked out the discrete nature of the levels >> for yourself here. >> >> >> > Jc: I am working out the dependencies of the levels - the exact opposite > of their discretion. > > I think I understand what Pirsig was aiming at - the fact that when a jump > in levels occurs, entire new harmonies and purposes occur. > But to my thinking it's like a symphony that creating new rhythms out of > the old, still include the old while developing into more. > Intellectual patterns depend upon a biological brain. Intellect cannot be > shown to exist outside of a biological brain, unless you believe in angels > and ghosts. Dan: Well, again, the levels share an evolutionary history. The brain couldn't exist unless certain molecules evolved in order to sustain life. Social quality patterns couldn't exist unless biological patterns evolved in order to sustain them. Intellectual quality patterns couldn't exist unless social patterns evolved to sustain them. That doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion the levels are not discrete, however. They have each gone off on an evolutionary journey of their own that is often opposed to the lower levels. > >>JC: >> > Pirsig's philosophy isn't about system-building, in the first place. >> > Pirsig's philosophy is about obtaining lost value. When you have a >> > realization of good, you don't have to ask experts or authority >> > anymore, what is good. Neither do you need to be a reactionary and >> > reject authority, just because it's not able to rule in every >> > individual life. You take what is good and you share it again. >> > That's the way good ideas spread. >> > >> > Pirsig's teachings got me there. Now the question is, why should I be >> > captured again, by worshipping Pirsig's teachings? Was he not a >> > single man in his single experience and speaking of the problems he >> > faced in the high country of the mind? Other people don't start from >> > the same place as him. For the important reason that time marches on >> > and places change. >> > >> > Mountains are wide at the bottom. Is Pirsig about learning one >> > route, and one route only? Do I have to move to Montana and get >> > rubbed out in Chicago? Or is Pirsig about showing a way to find your >> > own path? Because I'd always assumed it was the latter, and if that's >> > wrong. If what we are supposed to take from his work, is memorizing >> > words and parroting them exactly, then I guess I've really been wrong >> > about ZAMM and Lila. Arlo and dmb and Ant are right, I'm just stupid >> > and don't understand the MoQ, after all. >> >> Dan: >> The only way I have ever learned anything is by being wrong. Ain't >> nothing wrong with being wrong. That, and I wear a size 14W boot. You >> know what they say... big feet, big boots! >> >> > Jc: Big boots are certainly helpful in wading through the BS. I got > rather small feet. Maybe that's why I stumble over it so much. Dan: Yes, there is that. Plus they keep me from tumbling over in the wind. Thanks, John! Dan http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
