<snip> Case: Mark: 1. Entropy is a law like measure of inorganic matters' tendancy* to disorder. Case: 1c. More or less.
Mark: 2. The moq claims biological life is not reducible to inorganic matter. Case: 2c. Pirsig said this, yes. But it is simplistic. Of course life is not a chemistry lesson. Mark 02-02-07: Hi Case. It seems to me this is what you ARE suggesting: Life is reducible to chemistry and physics. Case is chemistry and physics. Mark: 3. The moq further claims that biological life resists inorganic laws. Case: 3c. One could also say biological life finds incredible ways to cooperate with inorganic laws. Mark 02-02-07: How can X co-operate with Y if X = Y? Mark: 4. Therefore, biological life does not obey entropy. Case: 4c. Find me a serious biologist who claims that biology violates any of the laws of thermodynamics. Mark 02-02-07: One who believes in evolution may? Life evolves and grows in complexity. If entropy is a measure of a system's tendency to lose complexity then it's pretty clear biological evolution is defying entropy by definition. Chemicals don't spontaneously form Case, they need millions of years to do it. On the other hand, place Case, stark buck bollocks naked out in the Sun with no food or water for a few weeks and he's going to end up whiffing a bit. Mark: * Tendency, because quantum indeterminism does not rule out extremely improbable reverses of this law. Case: *c Perhaps we should deal with extreme improbabilities in proportion to their increase in probability. In the mean time don't hold your breath waiting for a reversal. Mark: 01-02-07: If energy may be said to be evolving, then it is evolving into structured states which resist entropy. But that's what life is, (thanks to Carbon chemistry) and it's what distinguishes it from the inorganic. 07-02-01: Case: Energy does not evolve it changes form. Light hits the Rock Bound Chem Prof (RBCP) and is either reflected as light or absorbed as heat. Light energy is converted to heat energy. Carbon and carbon molecules can convert light energy into chemical energy. Chemical energy can produce electrical energy. Each time it changes form some energy is converted to heat. In some of its transformations energy is stored as chemical or potential energies. Positive and negative ions become unevenly distributed in the atmosphere and spark to create equilibrium. If you want to call any of this "resistance" I suppose you can but the term seems problematic to me. Mark 01a-02-07: Resistance is futile. 07-02-01: Case: As noted above. Mark 01a-02-07: In other words, the structure of the whirlpool surfs in the flow of energy. If you examine the degree of intricacy of inorganic open systems you observe them to be fleeting structures at best, or Planet sized Jupiter like Red spots at worst. The case may be different with regard to biological life? In this case, the fidelity of the transmitted structure is: 1. Exceptionally intricate (think of your own body) 2. Becoming increasingly intricate through millions of years of evolution. Is the Red spot evolving? Does a whirlpool evolve and transmit its structure with high fidelity? No. Only Carbon based biological life can do this, as far as we know. I grant that computer software may be able to do a similar thing. 07-02-01: Case: Stabile patterns of energy and matter exist in many forms here from snowflakes to sequoias. That is what makes Earth Dynamic. From sparks to seasons all manner of chemical, electrical fluid and nuclear interactions are possible. Carbon based systems are among the most complex and the most interesting. Mark 02-02-07: So, Case IS chemistry and physics. Mark 01a-02-07: What you are saying is this: The whole biological repertoire, from its inception to now, may be considered to be one whole dissipative system. Further, it is a continuation of the inorganic repertoire which existed prior to the inception of the biological repertoire. In other words, it's all one huge whirlpool, to be a bit analogous. Congratulations Case, you've just demolished the moq. 07-02-01: Case: The giant whirlpool part makes me uneasy but most or less. However, I do not see how this contradicts the moq. Mark 02-02-07: I'm not surprised it makes you uneasy. You've just replaced all the biologists in class with chemistry and physics professors. "Today kids we're going to talk about this chemical compound," indicates the professor pointing to a vast molecule on the blackboard. "Excuse me sir"? interjects a tentative voice, "But isn't that a Lion sir"? "You won't pass your chemistry exam using short cuts like that Case," smiles the kindly yet weary tutor. "This molecule is called, Pancarbonichydrogenicoxythermic...." (30 minutes later) "...protoacid." "Pardon sir?" <snip> 07-02-01: Case: Or you could say that biological systems are more complex, more energetic, more Dynamic. They are open to more and different relationships. There is a spectrum of organic forms laid before us from hydrocarbons to blue whales. I agree that is it "better". I certainly believe this. But "better" is a statement about my particular relationship to life. It is a term "best" used in with particular contexts. But why does the moq need to have a "come back"? Mark 02-02-07: When you inform peoples like the beloved Skutvik one that you don't adhere to a conventional moq you certainly mean it don't you? sq patterns are dharmic ethical principles undergoing evolution toward higher states of Dynamism. This includes basic inorganic elements. The suggestion is this would be so even if there were no life forms. You appear to be suggesting an existentialist notion that your being is prior to value. As you now confirm: <snip> 07-02-01: Case: I have as much value as I can make for and of myself. <snip> 07-02-01: Case: Have you seen Allen Ginsberg summary of the Laws of Thermodynamics: First law: "You can't win." Second law: "You can't break even." Third law: "You can't quit." Mark 02-02-07: He must have been a big fan of Immanuel Cant. Case: May I recommend Ecclesiastes? Mark 02-02-07: Thanks. I've tried everything but nothing will shift 'em. Love, Mark moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
