[Case] We can bend and twist words to mean whatever we want. [Arlo] Didn't "chaos" mean something different ten or twenty years ago? Our understandings of quantum physics altered the entire way we think about the fundamental undergirdings of "reality". And language adapted to meet those changing understandings. All I am saying is that a similar, radical shift in metaphysics necessitates rethinking what words mean under the old S/O logic. "Value" is one. In the past (and in most of the present), S/O logic dictates that "value" is simply human subjective experience. The MOQ radically destroys that, saying "value" is not "human subjective experience", but the Quality experience that underlies all of reality, from quarks to Quantum Physics.
I'm no longer really sure what we're arguing against, Case. You seem to be suggesting that one can have the MOQ, but change none of the ways of thinking or understanding we had previously. I see nothing in the eso-/exoteric differentiation here. I think the strenght of the MOQ is that it doesn't invent new terms that are understandable only by an initiated few. Value, Quality, these are things everyone knows. There is nothing hidden or arcane in the statement "an electron experiences inorganic value". It is a primary statement of Quality everyone can relate to. I'd say, instead, it is S/O dualism that makes the statement fuzzy. And I am in full agreement with Bo on that front. Its because you are so intent of sticking with the S/O definition of "value" (subjective experience) that it makes this recasting seem fuzzy. Certainly it is idiotic to suggest an electron experiences value in any conscious way as humans do. And when your use of value is so restricted, Quality remains a higher-level subjective experience. But the whole point of the MOQ was to overcome the old S/O ways of thinking. "Value" is not "subjective experience", it is primary experience going all the way down to the lowest particles we can name. Relativity made us rethink what we mean by "time" and "space". Quality makes us rethink what we mean by "value" and "experience". I just don't see the problem. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
