Hello Case,
> [Case]
> My view of Quality is a bit different than some. I regard Quality as The
> Way. It exists in the moment of sensation; when we instantly begin the
> process of classifying sensation into perception. It is a "Blink" moment
> when we apprehend something as good or bad. It can only be experienced. It
> can not be defined because each experience is different. When you try to
> define it you quickly degenerate into legalism.
Yes. Legalism, metaphysics or any number of other systems devised to
explain specifics in general, overarching terms. They can be good and useful,
e.g., facilitating communication, the socialization of young people, sustaining
structures and traditions for families and communities. And they can be
harmful, e.g., when used to control and constrain legitimate human liberties
(e.g., the Bill of Rights).
[Case earlier]
> [...] there are those
> among us here who do not recognize a reality that is Other.
> They seem to think we are making all this up in our own heads or that
> we are the finite manifestations of some divine thinker who really is us
> if we would only meditate long enough to realize our true nature.
>
> [Kevin]
> Right. Subjective imaginings or objective manifestations. By the way,
> who are "they?"
>
> [Case]
> There are phenomenologist and Buddhists and solipsists in our midst who deny
> the existence of external reality.
An external reality that is a single, true perspective where all other
perspectives
are false and illusory? Sounds like any number of a thousand different
religions,
and philosophies. They're all fingers pointing at the moon, imo. Truth exists
and
is revealed externally and is known internally. For me, the external mediates
the
internal. It can be known but it can't be controlled or contained. Some
approaches
to Truth are better than others for this or that person given their particular
life history
and trajectory. And all approaches can be bastardized and transmogrified toward
evil ends. And the measure of one's approach to Truth or God or Quality is not
the
trappings of one's religion or philosophy but whether it leads to better and
more
whole relationships with others...in my opinion.
> [Case]
> This is just my personal take on it but for me perception and memory are
> whole subjective matters. They are the product of my experience with Other.
> Other does not always conform to my expectations and this forces me to
> revise my inner models a lot. Objectivity comes about when I communication
> with others and we share our experiences. When we can agree upon the
> commonality of our mutual experiences that is objectivity. Thus objectivity
> is inter-subjectivity.
>
> What the MoQ adds is that change (DQ) and stasis (SQ) are fundamental to
> both the process of individual perception and to the formation of
> inter-subjective agreement. Pirsig for example does not say that SOM is not
> there, only that it is not fundamental. Both are shaped by the interactions
> of DQ and SQ.
Why credit the MoQ with this? Perceptions on static and dynamic have been
around for centuries.
> [Kevin]
> Speculative metaphysics? Is there any other kind?
>
> [Case]
> I don't find Taoism to be speculative and to the extent that the MoQ is in
> line with it I don't find it speculative either. That each individual is
> alone in a world of their own sensation and perception seems to me to be a
> matter of concrete fact. [...]
Mystic Quality or concrete metaphysics? It looks like, for you, it's one or
the other...not that my posts are any more complete or consistent.
> For a metaphysics to rise to the level of common understanding it can not be
> airy and refined. It needs to speak to the common experience of most people.
I would add overarching. Doesn't a metaphysics need to be comprehensive?
> I think most people intuitively know that the world abounds with
> uncertainty. Our language is rich with metaphors describing this. Our
> societies are constructed to maximize order and reduce the impact of
> unpredictable change. The MoQ offers at least the vocabulary and principles
> to construct what Pirsig said would be "a metaphysics of randomness."
Sounds like an overstatement. Better to say that the MoQ shows that "good
is a noun" and leave it at that.
Kevin
---------------------------------
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