Krimel asked dmb:
What would a "mechanistic" explanation of evolution involve? It sounds awful
like we should all be down on it but just which evil bastards are proposing
such a thing.
dmb says:
The mechanistic explanation would involve natural selection. What else could
I possibly be talking about? And the "evil bastards" include a lot of
people. Herbert Spencer springs to mind, for starters.
Krimel said:
Every time you mention James's name my short creep up my butt. It's like you
read him in sentences and think you get it. The quote you used get's trotted
out a lot apparently but it comes from a review that has little or nothing
to do with evolution. In his collected essays there follows one on Herbert
Spencer that should be more to the point. I would have read it but I was too
busy trying to find the relevance of the earlier quote to the point you
tried to make or to anything at all.
dmb says:
Well, that's all very insulting but you don't seem to have an actual point.
The James quote was selected by Hofstadter and used in his book on social
darwinism and I really don't see how you could fail to see its relevance to
evolutionary theory. He was arguing against the Darwinian idea of survival
of the fittest in that quote and there are many more like it. He and Spencer
both loom pretty large in Hofstadter's book. It seems you're protesting a
bit too much and maybe even pretending to be clueless. I mean, here's a
sample of that mysterious mechanistic view and in this case the "evil
bastard" is you.
Krimel said:
Evolution is a response to change nothing more. Attaching personal
preference for what is "better" is juvenile. You know when you talk like
this it make me want to provide remedial lessons. If you don't want lesson
quit talking like you need them.
dmb says:
Again, this is pure, empty insult. Its hostile but has no content. I mean
why is it "juvenile"? Whay do I need a remedial lesson? Quit talking like
what? The idea of volitional evolution or "betterness" can be seen in here
in words like "vote", should-be and "ideals". Again, James quoted from
Hoftstadter....
"In other words, there belongs to mind, from its birth upward, a
spontaneity, a vote. It is in the game, and not a mere looker-on; and its
judgements of the SHOULD-BE, its ideals, cannot be peeled off from the body
of the cogitandum as if they were excresences, or meant, at most, survival."
Krimel said:
Change drives evolution. Chance drives evolution. Betterness is in the eye
of the beholder.
dmb says:
That's classic. Its also SOM based. And my point is that James and Pirsig
are opposed to that view. As Hofstadter puts it, "Pragmatism resulted from
criticism not only of Spencerian evolutionism but of many other intellectual
tendencies." This one is fun. Here he quotes a lecture wherein James doing a
parody of Spencer. "Evolution is a change from a nohowish untalkaboutable
all-alikeness to a somehowish and in generral talkaboutable
not-all-alikeness by continuous sticktogetherations and
somethingelseifications." For a Victorian, he was a pretty funny guy.
Immediately following that line, Hofstadter says, "It seems clear that
James's objection to Spencer arose partly because James was in search of a
philosophy that would acknowledge active human effort in the bettering of
life." The author does not say anything about this notion being juvenile.
Krimel said:
Again you invite a lecture. Please read a book on the subject and stop
talking this trash. Improvement? In what?
dmb says:
Read a book on the topic? But, but, but ...I'm QUOTING from a book on the
topic. I realize that looking at social darwinism is not the same as looking
at biology text, but social darwinism is the thread name and I began this
thread with Hofstadter's book. So, again, your insult are empty and they
don't even have the advantage of being funny either.
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