dmb said to Krimel:
...So how does this underscore your point and, more importantly, what is
your point?
Krimel replied:
My point is that arguments against social Darwinism are not necessarily
relevant to natural selection. They are not even relevant to whether or not
the principles of evolution operate in societies or on ideas.
dmb says:
Arguments against social darwinism aren't relevant to whether or not
evolution operates in society? Okay, that is so goofy and nonsensical that I
figure you've GOT to bluffing. Obviously, social darwinism and the case
against it are both about exactly that. Basically, social darwinism is what
you get when the concept of natural selection is applied to human society.
It's still very much with us. We've all heard it. It's the attitude that
says the poor are poor because they're unfit, unable to adapt. The nastier
versions back in the day would even openly hope for their extinction.
According to Hofstadter, William Graham Sumner was "the most vigorous and
influential social Darwinist in America." Here are some more peppers for
you, but I think they have some vitamins...
"Let it be understood that we cannot go outside of this alternative:
liberty, inequality, survival of the fittest,; not-liberty, equality,
survival of the unfittest. The former carries society forward and favors all
its best members; the latter carries society downwards and favors all its
worst members." (Sumner)
This was exactly what some people wanted to believe, of course...
"The growth of a large business is merely a survival of the fittest. ..The
American Beauty rose can be produced in the splendor and fragrance which
brings cheer to its beholder only by sacrificing the early buds which grow
up around it. This is not an evil tendency in business. It is merely the
working-out of a law of nature and a law of God." (John D. Rockefeller)
At this point I'll remind you that this thread began when Ian told Arlo that
he was "comfortable" with social darwinism and I whipped out my Hofstadter
in order to explain why he shouldn't be comfortable with it. Obviously, the
MOQ does not limit evolution to biological organisms but all I ever meant to
say is that this does not constitute an endorsement of social darwinism. My
argument against it is just that. Its not an argument against evolution or
for intelligent design or anything else. I'm just saying that social
darwinism is cruel and bogus. I'm attacking it on both moral and
intellectual grounds and, unlike yourself, I'm not just goofing around.
It's true that Hofstadter was a Marxist and that he wrote "Social Darwinism"
as his dissertation. Like a lot of people in his generation, he grew less
radical as the years went by. But these changes apparently didn't alter the
book much. I read that he worked it over pretty well in 1955, but the
changes, he said, were just a matter of style. I have a 1992 version. It
includes an added intro by Eric Foner in which that story is told. Anyway,
it sure wouldn't be wrong to view the argument against social darwinism as
an argument against capitalism, at least of preditory capitalism. But
considering the context of this discussion, my interest is more
philosophical than political. Despite Hofstadter's imperfections, Social
darwinism is a particular set of doctrines about the nature of social level
evolution. I think that is something like an historical fact. As far as I
can tell, the relevant question is about whether or not this fits with the
MOQ. If it doesn't fit, as I'm saying, then what can we say about evolution
at the social level?
As I understand it, the MOQ says that only the athletes should survivie. It
endorses a genocide against everyone who doesn't lift weights or at least
jog a little. Just as in high school, jocks should rule. The only exception
should be the un-employed. No amount of exercise is enough to save those
bums, they're just too much of a drag on evolution. Naturally, "retirement"
takes on a whole new meaning.
85% Sincerely (up until that last paragraph),
dmb
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